[Crossover] Interview with Annie Elise from 10 to Life

Meet Annie Elise

Annie Elise is the powerhouse behind 10 to Life, one of the most popular true crime YouTube channels and podcasts in the world. With millions of subscribers and listeners, Annie has become a trusted voice in the true crime community.

But she didn't start out in true crime. Annie spent 15 years in the fashion industry doing trend forecasting before the pandemic changed everything. In 2020, she started creating true crime content—and the rest is history.

In this special crossover episode, Mandy and Melissa sit down with Annie to talk about her journey, her process, and the realities of being a true crime content creator.

The Challenges of True Crime Content Creation

Annie opens up about the unique challenges of creating true crime content on YouTube, where platform censorship is a constant issue. She explains how she has to carefully navigate language restrictions—abbreviating "sexual assault" to "SA," avoiding certain words like "pedophile," and finding creative ways to discuss sensitive topics without getting demonetized or flagged.

She also talks about the emotional toll of researching horrific cases, especially those involving children. Annie shares that she covered the case of Baby Brianna—one of the most disturbing child abuse cases—and it took her six months to finish researching because she kept having to stop due to how physically ill it made her.

Cases Annie Has Covered

The conversation touches on some of the biggest cases Annie has covered, including:

•Ruby Frankie and 8 Passengers - Annie discusses how she started covering the family vlogging scandal and cult-like behavior of Jodi Hildebrandt's "Connexions" group before the arrests happened.

•Casey Anthony - Annie reflects on the controversial case and the public's ongoing fascination with it.

•Gypsy Rose Blanchard - The complexities of covering a case where the victim became the perpetrator.

Annie also discusses the types of cases she refuses to cover, including cases where the victims' families have asked for privacy, cases involving ongoing litigation where she could be sued, and cases that are simply too emotionally devastating without adding value to the conversation.

Setting Boundaries in True Crime

One of the most important takeaways from this episode is Annie's emphasis on setting boundaries. She talks about how she and Mandy and Melissa have all made the decision to largely avoid covering cases involving children, not because those stories aren't important, but because the mental and emotional toll is too great.

Vanderpump Rules Trivia

The episode ends on a lighter note with Melissa quizzing Annie on Vanderpump Rules trivia. Annie proves she's not just a true crime expert—she's also a Bravo superfan! The trivia game is hilarious and a perfect palate cleanser after the heavy true crime discussion.

A Must-Listen Crossover

Whether you're a longtime fan of 10 to Life or discovering Annie Elise for the first time, this crossover episode is a fun, insightful, and honest conversation about the world of true crime podcasting.

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Hey guys, and welcome to the Moms and Mysteries podcast, a True Crime podcast featuring myself, Mandy, and my dear friend Melissa. Hi, Melissa. Hi, Mandy. How are you? I am doing well. I am probably more excited than I have been. The last few weeks. Okay. Maybe rude. We have an exciting thing going on today. So, uh, this is not my typical, I'm bored.

It's hot. I am tired of living in Florida. Um, negative attitude today, right? And we have someone who doesn't live in Florida but lives in a sunny state who's probably appreciating the weather right now. Joining us today. We have the lovely, wonderful, incredibly talented, so popular Annie Elise. Hi. Thank you guys so much for having me.

I wish I could say the weather is good right now, but it's like down pouring outside really? Yes. Yeah, it's, it's quite pretty here today, but we've just been through it. It's, you know, it's Florida. We take what we can get. [00:01:00] Unfortunately, or fortunately our listeners really like to hear. Weather updates, like we'll have people, I love that in the UK writing us like, I love it.

Yeah. It's so fun. It's so old women of us. Yes, I know. Very golden girls. I don't even know how that became a thing. Honestly. I think we just, I. Talked about the humidity one too many times, and then it became somehow endearing to talk about the humidity. So I don't know. Here we are. Yeah, we're here. Well, Annie, we are so excited to have you and are hoping to pick your brain a little over true crime and had a few questions for you, but just wanted to see if you wanted to introduce yourself in a way that's.

Comfortable for you? Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited to talk with you guys as well. So my name is Annie Elise. I am a true crime podcaster and YouTuber. I started back in 2020, very randomly by chance. I always have been a true crime watcher and consumer, but I was in the fashion industry for about 15 years doing trend forecasting.

And then when the pandemic hit, I needed [00:02:00] a hobby or an outlet. And so I just started talking about true crime in a way that. I felt like I couldn't find for myself, like everything I was watching or consuming, it felt very clinical or very sterile. And I'm somebody who likes to get into all the details, like look on social media, look on Reddit, and know everything about a case, and then just talk about it with my sister, like, you know, who's my best friend?

So when I was looking for coverage like that, I couldn't really find anything. So I was like, let me just start talking to the internet, I guess, which probably isn't healthy, but let me just start talking to the internet like they're my best friend. Like let me talk to them how I would talk to my sister.

'cause my sister, I was living in New York at the time and she was still in California. And then I just started doing that as a hobby and it slowly started growing and took off and then it. Turned into more long form content than it turned into the podcast. And here I am today, now out of the fashion industry and doing true crime full-time.

Okay. But to be fair, you're still fashionable. Thank you. Like I love looking at your looks on your YouTube and [00:03:00] everything. Yeah. Like now it like, it tracks to me. I'm like, okay, Mandy, we weren't born this way, but you know, Andy's got it covered. Maybe we can just ask her anytime. I know. Yeah. Although, Melissa, I feel like some of that kind of sounded a little familiar too.

Kind of us getting our start, just really being interested in true crime already and not really finding like exactly what we were looking for to listen to or to consume that was already available out there. Melissa has always just been. A funny woman and um, that's her strong suit. So I appreciate that we are able to create a podcast that we both like that's a little bit more conversational.

We're able to kind of inject a little bit more of our personalities instead of, as you said, having just another really sterile, straightforward method of delivering these types of stories, which is something that I think is so cool about you and just. I feel like it's something that we share in common.

I love that. I love that. So you started to back in 2020. How long until this really became like [00:04:00] a job for you? I would say I was balancing both between still doing everything in fashion and then doing this, you know, when I was done and clocked out for the day, technically at five 30 or whenever it is.

Mm-hmm. And I balanced the two until, I believe it was September, 2022. And then that's when I was like, you know what if I'm gonna pour myself into, do. This, I need to actually give it all of my attention, all of my dedication. I knew that if I was going to leave my job, I was, I, you know, I had a fantastic job.

I loved fashion. I was a senior executive. I have two kids. Like it was difficult to walk away from the salary, the benefits, the safety net, all of that. Yeah. And go into the unknown. But I told myself, I've always been a hard worker, but I said, you know, if I'm gonna do this, I'm going to treat it like a job.

I'm gonna treat it like a career. Work still nine to five every single day. And so when I decided to leave at the company in 2022, that's exactly what I did. I found a studio space. I would go in every day at eight [00:05:00] 30. I would leave by four 30 every day. Um, and I would just start rec. I would record. And that's, I think everybody always asks, you know, how do you put out so much content?

Like, what are you doing? I'm like, because I treat it Yeah. As though it's a job. I come in and I record every single day. Um, and so yeah, ever since then I've been doing it full time. That's amazing. Um, yeah, I actually kind of had a little bit more of a question for that then, because you've mentioned kind of setting it up like a nine to five job and putting in those full-time hours.

Does that actually look like nine to five for you? Or what does a typical work day or even work week look like? I know for me, I'm constantly texting Melissa about how I feel like I'm all over the place. I try to do a little bit of work in the morning and then I have to take kids to school or pick them up or run errands for my family, and then I'm trying to squeeze in a few hours.

Was a work in the afternoon and maybe sometimes in the evening. And depending on how much we have going on that week with how much we have to record or how many episodes have to come out soon, things like that. So I feel like it, it's definitely full-time work, but certainly not [00:06:00] full-time hours for me.

So how do you. Manage that. Luckily, my husband has been incredibly supportive and his career allows him to have more flexible hours as well. He's a boxing trainer and he's also an ultra runner, and so he goes on more like marathons and it's kind of sporadic, so he helps a lot with taking the kids to school, getting things prepped, and so a typical day for me is I usually get here into my office space by eight 30 or 9:00 AM I'm recording, I'm doing some meetings.

Brainstorming what cases I wanna cover, talking to sometimes family members of these cases. And then I usually leave here by, I would say, four at the latest so that I can be home when my kids are home from all their afterschool programs. And then I try my best to shut it off when I'm at home and not work.

But as I'm sure you guys know, true crime literally never sleeps. There's always new cases, always updates. So I'm always on my phone kind of trying to juggle everything, but I have found it to be a good balance. Pulling myself out of the house, coming to a [00:07:00] dedicated space where there's not really any option but to work while I'm here.

And so that's how I'm able to really find the dedicated time to do that. Mandy, write that down on our vision board. We need office space for sure. We do. Um, Mandy and I, when we first met, both of our kids were being homeschooled, so we've. Always had this like opposite schedule and like, it's just kind of always been a mess.

My son is being homeschooled right now, but um, you know, it's just kind of all over the place. And like, like Mandy was saying, I'm texting her at like nine o'clock at night. You know, Hey, we've got these two things coming up. Can you get me this, blah, blah, blah. And we don't have people, uh, we are our people.

Mm-hmm. And so it's been very overwhelming. And you didn't ask me this. I don't know why I'm even saying this. I guess I should too embarrassed. I love it. I'm hearing new things right now. For the first time ago, I was in therapy two weeks ago. I'm getting insight into your brain. I have never, I'm having a breakdown.

Any you can take over my spot. I'm clearly unwell. [00:08:00] And I think all that to say, I love that you have that dedicated time. I think that's so smart. And we really should, we're just gonna be taking notes on Yes. What you're doing. Yes. Because you're doing it all right. Like you're doing an amazing job to be able to balance all of that and to have so much success.

And coming in 2020, like we felt like we were kind of in the last wave of true crime of people coming in and making it like a job. So even 2020, it felt like new shows would come, new shows would go and. People weren't sticking around, but Mandy and I would always say that you have to act like this is your job, this is your job.

And if you treat it that way and people can depend on you and have, you know, know when you have episodes coming out, it'll really make a difference. So you nailed it. Oh, thank you. I mean, it definitely, I think it definitely helps, and I see that if people can see the routine, it does make a difference. But that being said, too.

Before, it didn't always look like this for me. Like you, it's, you know. Mm-hmm. You juggle, you try to do the balancing act, especially with children and you, [00:09:00] there's, you can't do it all. There's always gonna be a shortfall somewhere, and I'll be honest, even though I feel like I am getting it dialed in with this.

There are shortcomings at home where it's like, I wish that I was doing more drop offs, that I was cooking dinner for like them every night and doing those things where that's where it sounds like you are excelling, especially with homeschool. I mean, that is such a tremendous thing to take on. So I think no matter what you lean into, there's always going to, it's always gonna come in waves.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. So you started on YouTube mm-hmm. With Tend to Life. Right. And so now you have your podcast serially. Um, that I love the name of. I love reading it. I love your artwork, but I just struggle because me, you're not alone. Nobody can say it. Yeah. And like, one of my biggest regrets looking back is I should've named this podcast something different because when I hear so every day.

I can't, I don't know how to say your podcast. I'm like, me, either I, me either. I know it's like phonics. I just have to spell each letter out and I'm good. Um, but what do you feel like the [00:10:00] difference is now that you're in podcasting, what do you feel like the differences between YouTube true crime and podcasting, whether it's like the people or you know.

How, how things work. Really for me, I feel like it comes down to the delivery. I think that YouTube has so many restrictions and while it's a great platform and it's a user friendly platform, I. They do censor quite a bit, not just in the true crime space, but all over the map. And one of my biggest pain points, and one of the reasons I started the podcast is because when I would share these, these victim stories, in these cases, I found myself needing to dilute.

Some of the legal terminology I was using to make YouTube happy. Whether it's abbreviating sexual assault to sa or you can't say pedophile, you'll have to say they were on the registry and like find all of these loopholes to where and you can't. And if you can't even say like, this man was a rapist and like outright say, I was like, right, you.

Diminishing their [00:11:00] experience and diluting what they went through. And it's a legal terminology. It's not like you're being crass or insensitive or trying to be salacious. And so when I started the podcast, I was like, I wanna just be able to talk about these cases more honestly and more freely without the restrictions to give the victims the justice they deserve by actually hearing what they experienced and these monsters who did these things to them, but also just not have to, yeah, mute myself, censor myself, and.

Yeah, I don't know if I have found a huge difference. Necessarily in the audience of who's listening. I think a lot of it is the same audience sometimes, or like a cross pollination between the two, but I think the content itself there is just more opportunity to be more open and fluid with it. That makes sense.

Are you scared of YouTube commenters? As much as I'm scared of people that comment on YouTube, I'm terrified. Anytime we have like a small short go and I see like more than 500 people have watched it, I'm like, oh no, it's coming. It's coming. I'm just waiting. Oh, I'm not as scared of YouTube as I am of Reddit.[00:12:00] 

Oh yeah. Gosh. Yeah. If I'm ever having a day where I wanna just really feel bad about myself, I'll go to Reddit and then it'll solve that. Oh my gosh. Don't do that to yourself. Yeah. I'm a huge redditer, but I know better than to ever look us up on there or to try and look up myself or anything. I would just.

I don't wanna know. I don't wanna know what's on there. On Reddit. Yeah, exactly. YouTube, they can be really mean and the trolls can come out, but generally speaking, they're nicer than Reddit. But I also, early on, I did get a lot of that and it was hard for me to not live in the comments and I would. Take it to heart and it becomes very difficult.

But then after a while, I just now, I'll look at the comments usually for the first like half hour or hour of a video so that I can engage with everybody, and then I don't go looking for trouble. It's a kind of like if you look through a spouse or an ex's phone or a boyfriend's phone or a girlfriend's phone, it's like you're gonna keep looking until you find something you don't wanna see.

So I'm just not gonna even look totally. That's so smart. Mandy, we're learning so much today. I know I'm always, Mandy will read our reviews, not all the [00:13:00] time, but she'll be like, by the way, we got this review. I'm like, why are we doing this? I have to actively avoid these things. I don't have, um, well, I don't know.

Or just very, some people are wonderful, mean, are just downright mean. And really just honestly, it makes me sad sometimes. Like sometimes I'll read these reviews and I'm like, I can't believe you cared. That much or that you were that upset, by the way? Like we mispronounced one word or one city. Oh yeah. Or like one thing, you know, I mean, and now you're in my reviews giving me one star and saying that like I'm an idiot and like I shouldn't have a platform.

And like I'm like, wow, that's a little bit like, you know, like that's a little harsh. But yeah. You know, I don't know. You have to. Take all those with a grain of salt because there's always, you know, a number, a handful, you know, for every one of those where people are saying they love listening and you know that they love what we, what we're doing and the content we're putting out.

So yeah, I feel like you can't go looking necessarily for those, you know, those bad seeds, but. It does sting. Sometimes it does when you, when you read them, so yeah, it does. Annie, you were nodding when [00:14:00] Mandy was talking about the pronunciations. That makes me think that that's like a thing. If I could tell you the amount of times that people have come for me, because I'm like, guys, words are hard.

Sorry. Like I'll try it serious. I'll go to sir, and I'll say, how do I pronounce this? Try and do, and I'll still get it wrong sometimes. And it's like, you know what? I'm not perfect. I'm not perfect. I'm trying my best. Yeah, I love that. Well Mandy and I will now we are like hyperfocused on it and we'll both like pull it up before we start an episode.

I'm like, do you know how to say this? No. So we're both looking it up and like looking at different things and sometimes it's like the computer voice and you're like, I think they're lying to me 'cause this guys like, you think people are really trying to uh, to out you I guess. But if you ever need Florida help, please let us know.

They're all very, I'm gonna take up on that because. A lot of the times too, people comment about how they hate my vocal fry, how I say certain words, like always kind of weird. And I'm like, I grew up in California. I don't even know what a vocal fry is. It's just how I talk. I'm sorry. So I'm learning as I go.

It reminds me of the whenever debate that's gone on [00:15:00] forever. Yeah. Whenever, um, we say whenever, and we've gotten so. For the entire time we've done the podcast, we've gotten different comments and reviews about how they just can't believe that we're so like illiterate, that we don't understand the difference between when and whenever.

And we've even had like English majors come on and say, that's not why we had her on, but while she was on, we made her do do it. But she even said like, you know, regional dialects are a thing like. People in, like that's a common thing that people in Florida do. They kind of like, you know, use one, interchange 'em in place of the other, but it never fails.

Anytime we slip up and accidentally use whenever in the wrong way or in the wrong context, somebody will write to us or somebody will leave a comment on, you know, Instagram or something about how, uh, we still don't know how to use the word whenever, and I'm like, listen, I. I'm almost 40 years old. I'm not gonna be changing my vocabulary and learning like how to respeak.

Like, this is how I talk. You know, if it's, I'm sorry that it's so offensive. Well, and if that's what people are getting [00:16:00] hyperfocused on in these episodes, like you're missing the point. You know, there's, there's other stuff in this episode, like, if that's what you're fixated on, get outta here. You know, seriously, and in all seriousness, well, not even really all seriousness.

Above and beyond are very kind like they are. We don't really, it's just funny that that has been something that has truly followed us for years. Yeah. And we can never, it helps me. Yeah. We can never make it work. Yeah. So, of course you've covered a lot of different types of stories, but are there any stories that you have chosen not to share or any stories just in general, like different topics that you don't really wanna touch or don't wanna share on your platform?

Stories that I don't wanna share. I mean, there's certain things that I definitely steer clear of because it freaks me out. Like I won't talk about Scientology again. I made that mistake and never, like I steer clear away from that for the most part. Now I'll throw in. Little jabs here and there, but I don't try to like expose them.

I stay away from anything to do with the cartels. 'cause here in Orange County, I'm way too [00:17:00] close to the border. I'm not trying to like ruffle any feathers. No. And then cases that have just, there's certain cases involving children where I try to stomach it and try to muster up enough strength to cover it.

But now, especially being a mom of two young kids, there are certain cases that. It just is very difficult for me to do that. One of the cases that I had covered, I think it was maybe back in 2021, I, I had had so many requests for me to cover the case of Baby Brianna and mm-hmm. It took me probably six months after, like through researching it because I had to keep stopping and I, where I was actually getting physically ill as I was researching it to where I, it just took me so long to actually even put my.

Thoughts and my outline together, and then I finally covered it because so many people requested it. But there's certain ones like that where I just can't do it and it's just too tough. And if there's, if there's not an element where I'm adding value to it in some way, or there's a purpose in covering it, then I'm like, why are we even, [00:18:00] why do we need to put this out in the universe at that point?

Right. And so I would say those are probably the three that I steer clear of most. No, that makes total sense. We have had somebody that reached out to us and said they wanted us to cover a case and it had to do with that. And she said, I wanna let you know right now that this is where it is. And we had to say, we'll be happy to help you get with somebody else, but we're a two person team.

Like we don't have any recourse if anything goes. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Gosh. That was, I remember that. That was in person. Someone came up to us. Okay. That was not an email. And they're ruthless. Like they are ruthless. I feel like we are similar with like the things that we just don't cover. Mm-hmm. We've never really done, um, any stories with kids, except for one, really in the very beginning of the podcast.

But we decided pretty early that we just were gonna leave after that one. You know? Yeah. Any minor, like, we just didn't, not that those stories are not important, but like you said, it just. Takes a mental and emotional toll on you. And especially as a mom, it's really hard to read about terrible things being done to children.

And that was [00:19:00] just, you know, we, we decided that we didn't want to, um, spend every week, you know, researching and talking about stories like that. 'cause that is, it is a downer. It is very upsetting. Absolutely. So let's get into some specific cases, if you don't mind. I've watched several of your videos this week.

First of all, you're awesome. If you guys aren't subscribed to Annie, we'll have everything in the show notes. Please do. But one that you covered that Mandy and I are actually covering on our bonus episodes is the case of Ruby Frankie. How? Yeah. How did you get involved in that like story? Like did you hear about it from the beginning and know this is something you wanted to cover or No, I will.

Before the arrests happen, I had started looking at it and covering it a little bit, just more from like a cult perspective because it's my belief that connections is a cult. And so I started looking at it that way and researching. And then a friend of mine in the space, his name is Josh, he. Goes after family vloggers all the time.

He has a YouTube channel [00:20:00] called Dad Challenge podcast. He, and you know, he's not everybody's cup of tea, but he does try to expose family vloggers and he had covered a lot about eight passengers when it was on at the time, their family channel. Mm-hmm. So then as I was researching and I saw everything come to a head, I was kind of like, it was also in the, like in the throes of the Lori Vallow Chad Debell times.

Yeah. The extremists within the LDS. Faith, which I don't think everybody who is LDS is like that. It's definitely, of course, you know, people who kind of break off and do their own extremist views, but it was at the same time as that and so it just, there were so many cases where it was a. Almost like a cult with a sidestep of child abuse involved.

And so then I just started taking a much closer look at it. And when I really started watching all of their old videos that they published and her approach to things and her justification for her behavior, yeah, it made me sick. And I was like, we need to talk about this. We need to expose this person.

And then just more and more started coming out. And it's kind of interesting [00:21:00] because even the new Hulu documentary that came out, the Devil in our family, uh, or devil in my family. It didn't cover everything. There was so much left out. I know. And it, which was I, and I always get it. They're under time constraints and some of the stuff they're not gonna include for liability reasons and possible litigation.

Sure. I felt like there was, it was almost a disservice to the children to not include some of the information and really like paint them Ruby and, and Kevin as who to who they really are. And so I chose to do a deep dive on Ruby on our podcast a few weeks ago, which was about two hours long where I played a lot of the clips where she contradicts herself, where things, where things went right.

Kind of what the progression was. And then something personally as a viewer, after I watched that is I was like, Kevin, Frankie is now the husband. Father, he's now on like this media press tour, like trying to act like he wants custody, that he wasn't, you know, he wasn't as equally responsible, even though I get it.

It's like he wasn't there when the young, and [00:22:00] I'm gonna be careful with not saying what names, but when the boy fled and when they were rescued. But also he's now trying to say like, I didn't know it was that bad. First of all, you left for a year, even before Jodi entered the picture, you were co-signing on these punishments on some of this behavior.

Totally. Maybe not the Es escalated version, but you definitely cared more about a paycheck than your own children. And he many times has talked about how he loves Ruby and would do anything for her, and how he even basically tricked her into marrying him by like hitting all of her checklists. Yeah, so I, after I did the Ruby deep dive.

I just had this, like sometimes I get this weird pull in my gut where I'm like, I need to drag this person and I need to like show the world who they really are and so. This week on the podcast, I released a, you know, I think it's a little over an hour, a deep dive just into Kevin being like, let me play for you.

These clips from his media campaign he's on right now. And from the interviews in the documentary. Yeah. And then these clips from five years ago where you can hear what he really was doing because it's like, you don't get to get off Scott [00:23:00] free now. Act like you want custody. And then at the very end when he's like, this is a story of love of this and that.

I have, I, I hope that they are locked up longer than four years, but it's my belief that if Ruby does get released or when she gets released, he will allow her back in that house. He will allow her around the children, unless there's certain precautions put in place that he's not the one responsible for putting in place because he still is like a little dog to her.

And so where do the children get protected and all of that. So yeah, I decided I wanted to. Do a little dragging of him and call him out for who he is. 'cause I'm like, it's great that you're on this press tour now and acting like you care. But like, what about back then when you were also taking the door off the hinges when you were reading your children's text messages on live streams to, for public consumption.

Like you don't get to just act like the martyr here, you know? Yeah. Well, what was funny to, um, me and Mandy and I talked about this, is when the producer would push him, he would answer honestly. But before that, it would just be [00:24:00] like, yeah, I mean Ruby did this. And they'd say, well, weren't you a part of it?

Yeah. Okay. He gave me very big, uh, Natalia Grace, her dad, how He's like, she's the devil. She's the devil. She's the worst woman ever except Kevin seems to still have a thing for her. And you just think how. How, like somebody you love, once they've done that to your children, if say he doesn't know anything else, but once you know that he, they've done that to your children, I'm done.

There's no way I could have a feeling for this person. I have no love for this person. They've. They've become a monster. And Mandy and I were also saying, when you mentioned Lori Vallow, how much it reminds me and Mandy of that story, had the kids not gotten out, it really would've become that 100%. I completely agree.

And I think most people, what I've seen, at least from the comments too, of this week's episode is that most people are in agreement and they have a similar mentality about Kevin, but then some people are saying, you know. Annie, if the [00:25:00] roles were reversed, and if this was a woman, would you be saying the same thing because maybe he's brainwashed, maybe there's control.

I'm like, yeah. Yes, to a degree. I'm sure there was, but there was also mm-hmm. Signs of this behavior happening before Jodi even entered the picture. And not for nothing too, but brainwashed or not. You are there to protect your children, and I don't care who is telling you what. If you are seeing certain signs, like what he was saying, it's your job to step up.

It's your job to be a parent and protect the kids. And I agree with you. I think he's still in love with Ruby. I think that that's his priority and all of this. He doesn't even take accountability when he does say his little one-off answers of, yeah, you're right. It's like, okay, well expand on that. So why did you think that was?

Okay? Sure. Yeah. And he is not doing that. He even tried to get his daughter arrested when she took the hard drives and the passports from the house. He tried to have her arrested for burglary and he was pissed off in the body cam when she wasn't arrested, and that was after Ruby was arrested and he was found out what was going on.

It was like he was still trying to protect Ruby, not his children. Unreal. I, I wanna read [00:26:00] Sherry's book. I haven't read that yet, but I know it's very good that that recently came out. Yeah. Perfect. I have that on my list. So another case or just really person I guess, that I would love to hear your input on is someone who's popped up recently in the news that we haven't heard about in a really long time.

Casey Anthony. We actually covered Casey Anthony's story, our very first episode of the podcast, which was now like eight years ago. Please do not listen to it, you or anyone who's listening to this. Um, I feel like that's not a good representation of who we are as a PO as a podcast anymore, but. We're actually gonna reboot that episode and recover that story really, really, really soon.

But Casey has popped up in the news again because now she has kind of put herself out there, um, on TikTok and on social media, and is essentially saying she wants to rebrand herself and reintroduce herself to society, reenter society now, not just as a normal person, but as an advocate. So what are your thoughts on that?[00:27:00] 

It would be laughable if it wasn't so insulting to be honest, because yeah, it's just like the audacity of this woman. She is so unbalanced and just first of all, read the room in general, but also to just like, even if she were just joining social media for fun, not with this legal advocate positioning she's putting herself in, that would be a problematic enough.

But the fact that she's saying, I need to advocate for myself, for my daughter, I'm gonna help advocate for families. Uh, no, I'm sorry. Like you don't get to do that, right? Everybody, just because you were acquitted on or found not guilty by chance doesn't mean that anybody in the world believes you are innocent.

The writing's on the wall there. Yeah, and she's tried to rebrand herself so many times over the last couple of years, whether it was the Peacock Doc documentary, where it was called, where the truth lies, and she tries to cast all the blame onto her dad, and she comes up with stories, which I did a deep dive on that too, where it's like, no, you're once again contradicting yourself.

This doesn't make any sense. Right. And now she's trying to say [00:28:00] she's a legal advocate. It's like, just sit down, shut up and go away. You know, like nobody wants to either. That documentary that she did was such. Crap. I remember like watching that and just being like, this was such a waste of everyone's time and money to produce this.

Like there was no new information. Nothing shocking came about from this, uh, anything. I still don't know any more than I did the first time I researched the case, you know, eight years ago, or even when I was following along and watching, you know, the entire trial, like every day while I, you know, was at home with my young son at the time.

Such a wild, wild story. But of course. Casey does have those people who do support her and say, you know, she was acquitted. She deserves to go and live her life, you know, or be out in society. And, um, I guess legally she has that right. Uh, but I agree with you. I don't think that advocacy is necessarily something that she needs to be trying to insert herself in.

Uh, although she isn't the only one or the first one who has. Like either been acquitted or released from prison after serving time for murder, [00:29:00] who has gone on to gain some notoriety? We have Gypsy Rose who kind of did the same thing, you know, recently and got a reality show and has been very popular and people have been following her story and she's got a lot of supporters.

Um, which, you know, of course she has a very different story than Casey Anthony's story. But what are your thoughts? Do you think that Casey Anthony has any chance at. Really transitioning into like an advocacy position, or do you think people are just full stop, gonna write her off and say, we're not letting you back in Casey, there is not a chance.

I think the last thing I saw last night, which I'd have to go and verify, is that she's already been booted off of TikTok. So, and I know she had shut her comments off. I have to verify that that happened. I'd be so happy if it did. But no, there is no chance that this rebrand of hers is going to stick and.

What person in their right mind is hiring her or enlisting her help to be a legal advocate for them. I would understand maybe reaching out to Jose Baez because he's the one who got her off, but like Sure. Casey. No, she, [00:30:00] no, absolutely not. And I have my personal thoughts too on the gypsy rose of it all. I.

Don't really understand the fandom there, but I don't know that's a story for a different day. Yeah. It, it's such a weird, like, uh, the Gypsy Rose is such a weird, it's something that you would feel like you would read it in the past and be like, how on earth is this person getting a TV show? You know, she's killed her mom, she was convicted of it.

I mean, we, we know all those things to be true. She's said it, although now she kind of. Really distanced herself from what actually happened. So with the Casey Anthony thing, when I saw it, I thought, oh my gosh, is she going to Gypsy Rosas? And I'm very thankful that, uh, she's not been able to, I'm really hoping that she is gone from TikTok, but she comes in it so aggressively too, like, this is why I'm here.

I've been in the legal field since, what was it, 2009 or 2008? And I'm like, yeah, because you were on trial. Exactly. There's a difference. The whole attitude about that one. TikTok, the first [00:31:00] one that they had, they were showing everywhere. Like, you know, she was just. The attitude was just starving me crazy.

You know? She was like, this is what I'm doing. I'm doing this because mm-hmm. And it was so, it was so strategically done too, because she makes mention in that video how she wants to also advocate for the L-G-B-T-Q community. And it is so staged and I mentioned this on. Psychotic rant that I did when I found out she joined social media.

But if you can tell she's not holding the phone, it's positioned and fixed on her dash, which is fine, a lot of people do that. But the way she's positioning her one arm, it's so that you can see the tattoo on her arm that does say Love wins with the rainbow. And so she's keeping that in frame as she's then dropping the nugget about wanting to advocate for the L-G-B-T-Q community.

And you can tell that it's just. Done in such a way where it's like she's wanting to elicit sympathy from all of these different types of groups. Right. And it's not authentic. I don't believe any of it is authentic. I don't think she's ever done a single, [00:32:00] authentic thing. No. Probably just when she was forging all the checks and getting the tattoo and partying, that was probably the most authentic life she ever lived.

Right. Well, and you know, showing people where she works at Universal. Oh yeah. That's always one of my favorite parts of the story is I can't, I would just walk through the wall. There's just no way. At that point I could say, actually I don't work here. I know, um, I would've gone full Kool-Aid man and just ran through the wall.

So one I just watched from you that you covered is the Colin Griffith's case. Uh. He is, you can say more about this of course, but he was just tried here in Florida for the murder of his mother and he was, uh, found not guilty. There's so much more to that story that that's not even the craziest part of the story.

Yeah. That's like, okay. So if you wanna tell listeners a little bit about, that'd be great. Yeah. So he's a 17-year-old kid who was on trial for the murder of his mother, which he was claiming self-defense. There was this long history between him and his mother where there were CPS calls. There were [00:33:00] certain domestic disturbances.

There was definitely some toxicity in their relationship. From everything that I pulled in the FOIA and everything I read through, it was definitely my, it's my opinion that it stemmed from she wanted to be his mother and parent him. And he didn't want that. He didn't like that, right? So he was resistant.

So he goes on trial for her murder and he claims self-defense and what's so interests. Is that a year and a half prior to his mom being killed, his father was also killed. But because he wasn't charged in that case, and because it wa it couldn't be introduced at this new trial, so the jury never heard that his father was also killed a year and a half earlier that Colin was the one who killed him and also claimed self-defense.

So, and between the point of when his father was killed. And when his mother was killed, he even outcried to a friend saying, I've done it before I could do it again. And this was prior to his mother being killed. Wow. So he's found not guilty. I think that they said they're going to reinvestigate the case of his [00:34:00] father.

So I would imagine if they can get enough evidence, there will be charges that come down the pike for him in that one. Yeah. And it's not gonna be as easy to get off and get away with that one. But it is interesting because it's like. He's only 17 and he's killed both of those parents. Yeah. Whether you, whether it's self-defense or not, I don't believe it's self-defense in the way that they were both killed, but that is a diabolical human being and clearly a danger to society.

And now that he's living with his grandmother Yeah. Who is trying to nurture him, I'm. Grandma's next. If she takes away the Xbox, he's gonna come for her with a knife. You know, like, it's just unbelievable. Yeah. I, and the facts that I watched, um, like I said, your video and you had some of the clips of the grandma talking to police and saying, you know, he was being aggressive, he was being all this, but then in court her story kind of changed.

And so you're thinking, well, her daughter died. So if, if you're a juror, you're thinking her daughter died, why would she wanna cover up for the murderer of her own [00:35:00] daughter? I'm not saying that's what she did exactly, but her story changed. And if I was a juror, I would look at her and say, oh, okay, so she's not scared of him, he's gonna live with her or whatever.

So you can see how it's like she, not that she created this, this, because this is him, but it worries me for her, like you were saying, because. What protection does she have? She has nothing. He's done it before and he'll do it again. Absolutely. And I think too, we see so often in different cases where family members, even if they once do speak out against whoever's on trial or whoever the perpetrator is, they do backpedal because reality almost starts to set in right?

Where they're like, I've already lost one family member. I don't wanna lose both. Or it, it's almost as though you can't grapple with the idea of such a massive loss and. I don't have grandkids yet, so I can't tell if this is true or not. But I remember my mom telling me when I had my kids, she, like, we made, I made a joke to her one time, like, oh, you obviously [00:36:00] love my kids more than you love me.

And she's like, mm-hmm. A grandparents' love is a different kind of love. You love your grandkids Yeah. Differently than you love your kids more. So to be quite honest. And so I could see, and again, grandma's out there telling me if that's true, um, but I could see where. She now is, even though her daughter was killed, she wants to protect her grandson.

She wants him to have a life and a future to where that's also one of the last living relatives, and she wants to do everything she can to protect him, not even necessarily having the wherewithal to. Think rationally about what doing that or saying that means and what and the danger she's putting herself in, in turn, you know?

Yeah. So my last question, and then we have a little game for you is what do you do to unwind? You're taking in all of this. Information. Very dark things a lot of times. What does Annie do to relax? I watch really bad reality TV that like mm-hmm. For me, it's like when I go home [00:37:00] I just wanna decompress. I don't wanna, like, I'll, maybe I'll doom scroll for a little bit on TikTok.

Maybe I like, I'll hang with my kids, I'll hang with my husband and then I'll turn on. Reality tv, whether it's, it used to be Vanderpump, but maybe it's like Housewives Traitors. Mm-hmm. I'm obsessed with Traitors and Derek's a friend of mine, he went on this season, which is so I was like side texting him the whole time.

Yeah. I'm like, what's going on? What's gonna happen in the next episode? He's like, I can't tell you. Um, and then I recently got hooked on severance and I bing the whole first season in probably like three days. And then I'm fully caught up now on season two. So I definitely like to just unplug and like put my attention somewhere else.

Which I don't know if that's healthy. Perfect, but that's what I do. I do the same thing. I'm a big proponent of turning your brain off and watching trash. Um, so we have a quick little game for you. 10 questions. Multiple choice. Um, I called it, I made it nice. Um, just I like that. Yeah. I thought you would like that.

Love that. Yeah. And so, because I do know you like severance, I did give you one severance question. Okay. Okay. [00:38:00] Um, so the first question is, what is the name of the MDR file that Mark s is trying to complete? Severance Cold Harbor. Okay. I knew I wasn't gonna have to give you any. Oh shit. I'm dying this season.

I'm freaking out. There's only two more episodes. It's been amazing. I have to tell you, if you've been watching it, please. I saw on on TikTok this morning 'cause I'm on now on Severance Talk where it's all the theories and the episode recaps course. And I don't know if this is true, but somebody said that they noticed that.

On the box of the crib that he was disassembling that it's called Cold Arbor and so not harbor with the H. Yeah. And so that there's some tie. So that Cold Harbor is gonna be something with maybe the drowning or the baby or something like that. Oh yeah. So we'll see. I don't know. I know I can't wait. I know.

So if you're on that part of severance, you've heard the mark is hot. Hell, he's hot. Okay. I went out on a lip for that. Mandy knows I do not sing, nor should I. Um, but I'm so glad. Next question. Traders related. Who was the first housewife that was eliminated on this season of the traders? I can give you [00:39:00] choices or you can go for it.

I'm gonna go for Dorinda. Absolutely. Yes. You did make it di nice indeed. Yes. Okay. Next one. Denise Richards has a new show on Bravo, but this isn't her first reality show. What was the name of the first one? So this one is now called Denise Richards and Her Wild Things. So Denise Richards Colon. It's complicated.

Denise Richards colon behind the glam. I could stop with the colons. Uh, life unscripted or no filter? What was the first one? It's complicated. I think that one. You got it. Good job. Oh, yeah. I, I, I knew. Oh, man. What do I get if I ace this? This is awesome. Unfortunately, I forgot about that. You're doing quite well.

Okay. Number four, what Bravo song came out first. Tardy for the party. Gone with the win. Fabulous. Waking up in the morning or money Can't buy you class. It's either tardy for the party or money can't buy you class. I'm gonna say tardy for the party. You're amazing at this. I can cannot even believe that. I dunno if that's good.

That's [00:40:00] probably so embarrassing that I know of this song. I'm so impressed. Honestly, it's like meeting a hero. So we're moving from Bravo for one question and I, I just have a feeling that you'll know this world, uh, which is not the name of one of I and Alec Baldwin's kids. Raphael, Carmen, Marcos, or I, I'm gonna say Carmen because it doesn't have the Spanish twang.

Keep going. How about Marcos? Did you mean Marcos? Marcos? Yeah. You know what I meant, Marcos? Yes. Okay. I knew you got that. It wasn't Bravo related. That one doesn't count. What's the only Vanderpump rules adjacent restaurant that's still open. The Lablanca Schwartz and Sandies Po. Or Tom? Tom. Tom. Tom. There you go.

Have you ever been to Tom? Tom? It's my dream. I have. I've been to all of them. 'cause I live so close, Mandy. She really is my hero. Well, Anne, I have to, I'm getting emotional. So did you watch Vanderpump? Of course. So I [00:41:00] have to tell you, our newest producer who joined our team is Jess, uh, Lala's, former assistant.

Really Uhhuh. She's the best. I have question. She's so talented. I'm gonna love this. Oh, I know. When she came in I was like, love you gotta tell me everything. I almost called this game. It's not about the pasta. I was very close. I like that. I like that too. I, I have one last one. 'cause you're doing so good.

Oh, thank This is fill in the blank and I just wanna see how far you can go with it. So finish this sentence. Tom's house was. Broken. Oh, Tom's house was broken into on the snow. Was it the snowstorm night when Yes. And he, his confronted the burglar? Yes. I don't remember the exact sentence, but I do remember the story.

See, I would be worried if you knew that one. The whole one is Tom's house was broken into and he confronted the burglar and then he had to go have eye surgery, and then my son had to go over and help him. And then my son, he rolled over his car five times on the way home. So yes, I'm stressed. Yes, yes.

Iconic. Okay. There you go. [00:42:00] Um, I'm gonna get a tattoo of that. I think, Mandy, um, that will be, you're gonna need a, a big space. I'm, I've got one. Um, I don't know what that means. Annie, thank you so much for coming. Where can people find you? Thanks so much for having me. So, I do my podcast, serially, new episodes drop every Monday and Thursday.

Other than that, I have video episodes that are on my YouTube channel, tend to life, and I post multiple every week. So you can find me there, or on my socials, which is at underscore Annie Elise. I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you guys so much. So much. This was so much fun. Yeah, this was great. Thanks for having me.

All right guys. We will see you back next week with a new bonus episode. Bye.