[Florida Files] Bone Valley: The Leo Schofield Case

A Murder in Florida

On February 24, 1987, Michelle Schofield was brutally murdered in Lakeland, Florida. Her body was found in her car, which had been abandoned in a remote area known as "Bone Valley." She had been stabbed multiple times. Her husband, Leo Schofield, was immediately considered a suspect.

Leo and Michelle had been married young and were going through marital difficulties. They had separated briefly, and Michelle had been seeing someone else. When she was killed, Leo became the prime suspect. Despite maintaining his innocence, Leo was convicted of first-degree murder in 1989 and sentenced to life in prison without parole.

For over 30 years, Leo has insisted he did not kill his wife.

The Bone Valley Podcast Investigation

In 2022, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Gilbert King launched the Bone Valley podcast, a deep-dive investigation into Leo Schofield's case. What King uncovered was shocking: evidence that was never presented at trial, witness testimony that was ignored, and DNA evidence that pointed to another suspect entirely.

The investigation revealed:

•DNA evidence from the crime scene matched Jeremy Scott, a serial killer who was already in prison for multiple murders in the same area

•Jeremy Scott confessed to killing Michelle Schofield, providing details only the killer would know

•Witnesses placed Jeremy Scott near the crime scene on the day of the murder

•Prosecutorial misconduct and evidence suppression during Leo's original trial

Despite this overwhelming new evidence, Leo Schofield remains in prison. Florida's legal system has made it nearly impossible for him to get a new trial, even with DNA evidence pointing to another suspect.

The Interview with Gilbert King

This episode features an exclusive interview with Gilbert King, the journalist behind the Bone Valley podcast. King discusses his investigation, the challenges of uncovering the truth decades after the crime, and the power of storytelling in exposing wrongful convictions.

King explains how he became involved in the case, the evidence he uncovered, and the frustrating reality that Leo has no legal recourse despite the new evidence. He also shares the emotional moment when he witnessed another wrongful conviction exoneration in Florida—and his hope that Leo will one day experience the same.

The Fight Continues

Leo Schofield has spent over 35 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. His case has been featured in the Bone Valley podcast, which has garnered millions of listeners and brought national attention to his fight for freedom.

Despite the new evidence, Florida's legal system has not granted Leo a new trial. His only hope is that continued public pressure and storytelling will eventually lead to his exoneration.

To learn more about Leo's case and hear the full investigation, listen to the Bone Valley podcast.

TRANSCRIPT:

Bone Valley

[00:00:00] Hey guys, and welcome to the Moms and Mysteries podcast, a True Crime podcast featuring myself, Mandy, and my dear friend Melissa. Hi, Melissa. Hi, Mandy. How are you? I am doing well. How are you today, Melissa? I'm good, but I say skip the pleasantries. Let's get right into it because, well, that's it. We have the guest of our lifetimes, honestly, here a hundred percent.

Listen to any of our other guests, Gilbert, we've never said that about any of them. I, and I feel, I feel bad for anyone that comes on after this, but we have the man of the hour of the year. Just the coolest guy in the entire world, Mr. Pulitzer Prize winning Gilbert King. I can't, how don't I follow that?

That's just too nice. Thank you. It's great to be here. Thank you so much. We are so excited to have you here and beyond just your Pulitzer Prize winning work. You have created this. Incredible podcast Bone Valley that I spent much of 2022. I think it was completely immersed in. Uh, all I talked was [00:01:00] Leo. All I wanted to talk about was, you know, somebody else did this.

He never did this. You know, I, I just wanted to talk about, uh, all the time Twitter was a buzz. It was everywhere, and it's so incredible to talk to you. And we just wanna talk to you a little about, about the podcast for people who live under rocks and may not have heard of it or have listened to it just yet.

Right. And, uh, you know, how, how it came to be. Yeah. Um, you know, I could talk about it all day and, and, and I just say something I, I. I have to say this, like I love writing books, but this world was so different to me because most of the books I write are in the forties and fifties and everybody's dead.

And so all my research is just submerging in documents and, and case files. And this was something different because people were still alive and they were willing to talk to me. And you know, even going back to the 1980s because they were teenagers when this happened. Yeah. I think that's part of the allure, because, you know, they're roughly like my age.

I'm actually a little bit older than them, but, but like I was, you didn't have to say that. Yeah. I wouldn't, I sometimes feel like, [00:02:00] like talking to Leo, like he's been in prison for 36 years, I feel like, oh, he's some old guy now. And I'm like, I'm older now. Mm-hmm. But, you know, I actually went to college in, in Tampa.

And it was right around this time when this was happening, so I used to go to concerts in Lakeland. They used to have a lot of big concerts at the Civic Center, and I just remember those days and then that's the world I ended up going back into like 40 years later. Leo's a heavy metal guitarist and, and just, you know, meeting with his friends and his family and just going over this, you know.

I guess it's like a strange time of Florida that, you know, there's no cell phones. It's a different world that you're visiting, but everyone's still alive mostly. And so the access I had to everybody, I just, I just fell in love with this universe. Uh, people were cooperating me from with. All sides. The sheriffs, the, you know, not so much the prosecutors, but the witnesses and everyone involved, including, you know, Leo and Jeremy.

And so the access I had on this was just something that I just, [00:03:00] you know, it took me years, but it was just so satisfying to be able to immerse myself in a story like this. And it's filled with sounds and voices and it just, even though I'd never done a podcast before, we said this has to be a podcast.

Yeah, let's talk about that. You had never done a podcast and then knocked this one out of the park going into a second season. Are you, you know, second seasons following up to serial and stuff? Obviously the first season was so huge, but this one is a continuation in a, you know, in the same world. Is there any anxiety about how, how this would come to be or how it'd be perceived, I guess.

Yeah, there is a, there was a lot of anxiety in fact, and it was from all different angles. And I can just tell you that like after I wrote my book Devil in the Grove, which came out in 2012, my next idea was sort of sprung from that same universe. I found a different case in that county and I ended up doing, you know, another full book and had some of the overlapping characters and it's just like 10 years later.

And so like [00:04:00] I was used to kind of doing this. There's a lot that never made it into the first podcast. I mean, we had, you know, Jeremy's side and then Leo's side, and there's all these different cases and we had so many different angles covered because it took so long. This, this idea sort of sprung from, um, Jeremy's son reaching out to us.

Uh, he listened to the podcast. He never heard his father's voice before and he just wanted to talk. And I said, yeah, I'll talk to you. And we had no idea about a second season or anything like that. And as we were talking to him, I just felt like, wow, this is really interesting. This guy wants to meet his father.

The father's not, you know, he was told he was a monster. Um, and, and so he had this interest in Family connection from just hearing Jeremy's voice on the show. And so we sort of followed that and uh, you know, there were a lot of times where we just didn't think we could pull this off. It's like, where's the story going?

It's not about a wrongful conviction. Submerging ourself into Jeremy's family and Jeremy's life, and what is that gonna [00:05:00] look like? I mean, he's not somebody you're gonna be sympathetic with at all, um, on the face of it. Um, and so it was a real challenge to think, do we have enough? And, you know, I'll just, I can tell you this one strange thing is like he was in solitary confinement for a long time.

Only could correspond. And so like, wow, I have all these letters from him that are really interesting, but I'm not doing a book here. I'm doing a podcast. I need voice. And then last summer he, uh, just started calling me, got moved and he started calling me twice a week. And I had all these phone calls and sometimes we were just talking about mundane things like sports.

And then other times he's helping me solve other murders that he committed. Um, and. You know, he felt like he gained something from the podcast. He felt like he was treated fairly in the podcast from what he'd heard. Um, he felt like he'd done something good in his life, which I think is a really powerful thing.

Like, he thought completely, you know, what can I do to, to maybe like, make my life better. I'm never getting out. Maybe I can ease the suffering of the families, of my victims. And so [00:06:00] he made that choice. Um, and he, I think he got rewarded for it. His son came out of the, out of the woodwork to, to. Meet with him and talk with him and correspond with him, and, and that was something like, I don't think I've ever heard him happier.

Like he just, he had given up on his son, he'd written to him when he was young and just. I was trying, but sun avoided them. Um, and then this connection again, it was just, it was, it's a really powerful part of the story. I'm a premium subscriber, so I'm in the third episode now, so I got to hear a little of that, um, today and I recommend everyone, uh, becoming a subscriber.

All of the episodes are there now from season two. Correct. Yes. They're all, you know, I think if you're a subscriber, they're all dropped. And I, I can't tell you how many people I heard from yesterday that just binge the entire thing that all six episodes Yeah. Got, they got back to me like, when's the next one?

I'm like, I just finished this. It's the day and you're done with it already. Like it's just So, gotta give you a break. Come on. One thing I would love to know, because obviously the heart of the first [00:07:00] season is Leo and his, uh, wrongful conviction. How has meeting and working with Leo Scofield. Changed you and how you perceive people and just in general, because he's truly amazing.

Yeah. I mean, honestly, you may make me cry. Um, because I've never been more affected by a human being in my life. You know, the first time we met him. He said to me, you know, and we have it in the podcast. This is the story. You either believe it or you don't. It doesn't make it not true. I'm, I'm an innocent man, whether you believe me or not.

And he, the way he said that, I've never heard anybody talk like that. And he, he was just like, so transparent and said, look me up. Go deep. Do whatever you want. No matter what. You come back, you'll never find a connection to me in that crime. 'cause I didn't do it. And he, he goes, I'll tell the same story.

From Sunday to Thursday backwards, it's, I know what happened. I have no idea how my wife died. I was not there. And I'll be honest with you, I've sat with people who are, you know, who are killers, and I've sat with people who are innocent [00:08:00] and you can tell Yeah, the, the way they talk, um, Leo is just. He, he's the heart of season two.

I mean, he, we took our cues from him because nobody in the story had any empathy for Jeremy except for Leo. Leo's the only one who cared about Jeremy. And you know, he said, he's part of my story. I want him treated with care too. Um, and so it's just such a powerful thing to be in, in the presence of somebody like Leo.

It's, it's, you're going through something you cannot imagine. You know, your, your wife is killed. That would be the most traumatic event of your life. And then you're blamed for it. And then you're incarcerated for 36 years for that crime. Uh, I don't think any of us can really relate to that. How do you survive that?

How do you survive the bitterness and, and the anger? And I think it just makes you a different person. And in order to survive, Leo had to. Tap into some side of himself, um, that would save him and he did it. And it's infectious. I think the people that care about Leo, who believe in [00:09:00] Leo, um, and believe in his empathy and his forgiveness, yeah, I just think it's such a powerful thing.

It is such a lesson in forgiveness because there's so many silly things that we get hung up on in life that it's, you know, why would I forgive that person? You're looking at somebody, like you said, that's been in prison for three decades and we're looking to him to say, okay, well if you forgive him, then you know I should have more empathy towards this person.

So he's truly remarkable and I'm very thankful you've brought him into our lives. Yeah, and it's really, I think if, if you're on season or episode three, you'll see there's something really beautiful happens. It's just, and it all comes from Leo. Um, Leo was a pastor in the Messianic community. He's like the lead pastor, great following the prison staff loved him.

The warden loved him. Like he, he had this like non-violence thing that he had at the prison and like, I think they were the least violent prison. In, in the state of Florida, uh, because he was like all about non-violence and he, you know, he'd meet with the gang members and the leaders of the gang and said, we, we love you.

We don't want this happening in our [00:10:00] house. And, and that's how he kept violence down. He really put himself out there. And so like a lot of, a lot of. You know, getting back to your original question, like I was really following his lead. I was really worried because I was talking to Jeremy a lot and I was finding that I was finding compassion for him, even though obviously he should never get outta prison.

Um, he's too dangerous a person. We're not trying to get Jeremy outta prison, but, you know, I don't think he can be rehabilitated and, and brought back into society. And I think Jeremy would say the same thing, but can he be redeemed? Can he do something with his life? That ease is the suffering and helps other people.

And he wanted to help Leo, and that meant something to him. Doing the right thing meant something to him. And, and so that's what he did. And, um, you know, I, I think that wouldn't have been possible without. You know, Leo, um, just sort of setting the tone for that. Yeah, I love that, that though we can't be rebil rehabilitated.

He could be redeemed. The possibility of redemption there. That's very powerful. [00:11:00] It is. And you know, I honestly, just by coincidence, um, two nights ago I was doing a talk in, um, Dayton, Ohio for the Ohio Innocence Project. It was me and Sister Helen PreOn, uh, the author of Dead Man Walking, who, you know, she's traveled down the same roads that I just started traveling down, like meeting with.

People who are killers and what does that mean to his victim's families, you know? And she talked a lot about that. Like you have to care about everything. And if you can get. The convicted murderer to apologize. And that sometimes means a lot to the family, you know, because they don't really get true closure on this.

But if they can find out that they're the perpetrator or the person who took someone they loved from their life is genuinely sorry and wants to apologize, it gives them something to ease their suffering and, um. You know, that's a big part of what Sister Helen does. And I, you know, I was so inspired by her work and then just to be [00:12:00] like up on the stage with her I just thought was just phenomenal.

Like, I couldn't stop hugging her. And she was so funny too. Like she, what a larger than life person. Yeah. I. A little bit of a newer, uh, newcomer to this, this story. And still I'm working my way through the podcast. I've actually, um, just finished the second episode of this new season, um, today and now you definitely will have me as a subscriber because I left You did it Gil episode thinking did.

I'm ready to go and hear the rest of this right now. Immediately this story is so, like we were saying is so very complex and I. Just the many different conflicting emotions that it brings about is just truly unique. You don't see that in every. Case necessarily. And so that's one of the reasons why I think it's such a fascinating story.

But with of course, all of the complexities of this case itself, it also kind of points out a lot of the complexities within the criminal justice system. So how did you approach just uncovering all the layers of this story [00:13:00] without feeling overwhelmed by the weight of kind of everything, the injustices and all the emotion really behind everything?

Oh, that's such a great question. And you know, like I, I've always felt like my. Sole purpose in this was to expose state wrongdoing. Where did the wrongdoing happen? 'cause I, I became convinced very early on that Leo Schofield was innocent. I'm not naive. I, I was handed a card by a judge at a convention that he was speaking at, and he, I turned the card over and it said, Leo Schofield, not just wrongfully convicted, he's an innocent man.

And I'm think, I'm like, judges aren't supposed to do that. Like there's a code of ethics. They're not supposed to criticize the state's, you know, criminal justice system. And he was doing that. And, you know, I, I ended up calling him and he said to me. You know, I, he was, Leo Schofield was framed. I could tell you exactly how they did it, and he did.

And I started looking into it and I spent a lot of time, you know, reading the transcripts. And I became, after meeting Leo especially, I became absolutely convinced of his innocence. This was like six something [00:14:00] years ago. I've been on this case for six years. The prosecutor has never been on this case for six years.

Leo's defense has never been on this case for six years. I tracked down everything I, you know. What I ended up finding, and they're all cases are all different. Sometimes prosecutors make mistakes. Um, sometimes they get tunnel vision and when they just look at certain things because they want it, this was a case where the prosecutor actually made conscious choices to deceive, and I find that abhorrent, um, you know.

I, I mentioned this the other day and it's, it's, it's worth repeating. Uh, sometimes I ask the prosecutors to comment on this, like, I wanna ask you some questions. Why did you make these choices? And they don't wanna talk to me. And their answer is sort of always like, well, you know, we, we try our cases in the, in the court of law, not the court of public opinion.

As if, you know, the court of law has more integrity and more value. I'm sorry that that's not true. You know, there's a lot that is not admissible so you don't get the whole story. Um, the [00:15:00] truth is not something that just comes in courtrooms and in verdicts and I feel like we looked at everything. I've been looking at this case for six years.

Nothing I've ever found has come back and said, oh, that could be Leo. Every time I find something new, it points to Jeremy Scott. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind about this case and just to understand that, you know. Let's just say I deceive people in my work, you know? Or I withhold some documents like.

You know, you have these happening criminal cases all the time where somebody else confesses and the prosecutor hides it and it's called a Brady violation. And, you know, and what happens to that? What's the worst thing that happens to a prosecutor? The case gets overturned by a higher appellate court and they write the prosecutor erred by withholding exculpatory evidence.

And then the prosecutor goes on and does another case. You know, if I withheld documents, like say, let's just say Leo confessed to me and I in a letter, and I said, oh, I gotta hide that. That doesn't help my story. Right? And I, and I got caught. My, my books would be pulled from the [00:16:00] shelves. So I have more accountability than these prosecutors do.

And you know, that's what I think is a problem. And that's, that's what I try to write about. Like these were conscious choices to ruin a man's life. This prosecutor knew exactly what he was doing and he. Presented a case that was designed to just put Leo Schofield away not to get true justice. And even after the conviction, he started messing around with Jeremy Scott.

And so he's done a lot of things that I, you know, I find absolutely abhor and I talked to other prosecutors, they say This man should have been fired immediately for doing that as beyond unethical. And, and, you know, he, he's, he's passed away. So it's, it's a, a little bit. You know, I don't know what, what to say about it.

I'm not trying to smear him. I would be saying this if he was alive too. So with as emotionally charged as this case is, and I agree that it really. I feel like I, I can't imagine being the one looking into all of this and kind of bearing the weight of all these things, realizing all these injustices, there's so much that is genuinely upsetting in [00:17:00] this case.

Was there a moment in the process of making the podcast, whether it was recording or researching, where you felt like you were just. You, you're emotionally drained, you just don't know if you can do this anymore, or was there a time that maybe you felt like inspired and you thought, I'm definitely on the right path doing this?

We're we're going all in? For sure. Yeah. I think, like, I get asked the question about that, like, self-care, like people ask me, and it's always younger people who ask me this. Like, for older people, they don't, we don't think about this. I didn't really either. You know, like self care is like a martini. I don't, I don't know, like that's my, um, but like.

It's definitely there's, you know, like you're around a lot of trauma and a lot of, you know, pain. Um. In a way you sort of feel like you're absorbing a lot of this yourself. I, I talked to Isabelle Wilkerson, who's a writer I really admire. Um, she wrote, her recent book is called Cast, but before that she wrote a book called The Warmth of Other Sons.

And you know, she's just reporting on black migration and trauma and. [00:18:00] I asked her 'cause I was curious. I was hosting, I was moderating a panel like this and I, I said, I'm gonna ask her now because everyone asked me, right? I said, what do you do for self care? Like, how do you manage this because you're exposed to so much of this pain and trauma?

And, and she, her, I, I steal her answer now. Ba basically she says it's, it's a privilege and an honor to be able to. Go and help people who maybe don't have the voice to speak out about this thing and, and, and be able to voice something and, and take their stories and make them mean something. And it's, it, I do see that as an honor.

Like I feel, I feel really grateful for Leo to, to allow me to this, but I also feel grateful to Jeremy and, and all the people who have spoken to me. Um, and I try to honor that in a way that's truthful and. Empathic to them. And I think when you get to the end of season two, um, you know, it's transformative in a lot of ways.

I really do believe that it's, you know, you, you're gonna feel things that you haven't really felt before in a, in a, in a True Crime [00:19:00] podcast, I can guarantee you that. And it's really because we're honoring the people who are involved and, and, and being true to who they are. And you know, Jeremy too is somebody you're, you're.

You're gonna feel something about him when, when you get to the end of this. And I think it just goes back to like honoring people's humanity. You know, like, like Jeremy's son comes to the conclusion that, you know, like he's not, he does, he's not defined by the worst things he's done. He's still a. Family member, he's still my dad and he deserves a chance to be that dad and I, I was ignoring him for all these years because I just thought he was a monster and he, you know, in a sense he kind of, he's a killer and he's never getting out of prison.

But getting back to your point, can he be redeemed in some way? And I, I think the answer is obviously yes. What was the most challenging part about telling a story that really spans decades, and especially when there's been so many kind of roadblocks and false starts and just not really sure what direction it was [00:20:00] going?

You know, I don't really, I, the challenge of it was, I'll tell you, this is probably the best answer. When we started this project, I thought maybe I was gonna write like a feature article about this case. Um, maybe take six months or something like that and, and do it. But the more I was reporting, the more I realized.

All these voices are incredible. First of all, Leo is such a great storyteller and a great speaker, and, and so having a microphone in front of his face, I'm like, people need to hear him. I, I don't think I can do it justice by just doing type, uh, you know, print and so, and. So that, that was like a challenge.

We didn't, we, I didn't know how to do a podcast, so what do we do? We, we started recording everything and you know, you learn on the job. Like my first couple interviews were terrible because I'm just going, yeah, uhhuh, uh, and speaking through everything. I didn't really realize you gotta shut up sometimes and listen and nod at people, you know?

So I had to learn that. And it actually made me a better interviewer, I think, because, uh, I was, the, the rhythm changed of the [00:21:00] conversations, um, and letting people talk was. Where a lot was coming from. Uh, I think the whole challenge all along was like trying to wrap ourselves around this big sprawling case that sprawls for decades.

Um, it's appeal loss after appeal loss when you just can't even imagine. At one point, Jeremy Scott comes into court and confesses and admits to it, and. They just basically say he is got no credibility because he's a liar and they don't investigate, they don't try to separate what might be true, what might be false.

They take the easy route. Oh, well, he, he did say that, you know, he would, he would confess to anything for a thousand dollars. Well, he's never done that before. And when he did confess, he didn't get a cent. So you can say that and say, make it sound like he's not credible, but. When he confessed, he didn't ask for anything and he did it for free.

So, you know, like, let's look at the truth instead of just throwing these statements out there to dismiss his credibility. Yeah. Were you as terrified as I was earlier this year to [00:22:00] hear that Leo had been in an accident Because I thought my stomach was going to fall out of my body. I could not believe what I was hearing.

Yeah. And that's the thing, like, you know, this man was like just got out of prison like that same year and. You know, to suffer a serious severe motorcycle accident where now you know, his body is really banged up pretty bad. Um, you just feel like, what more can this man take? Like, who is there anything else that could be thrown at him?

And you know, to be honest with you, I know Leo, like if there's one person who can get through something, it's gonna be him. And this. He's in a lot of pain. Still to this day. He doesn't have, you know, he can't walk yet. He's still in a wheelchair. Um, he hasn't even started rehab because his pelvis was so smashed that he had to just do bed rest and not bear any weight on it for three months.

So that three months is almost. And he'll start rehab. But, you know, he's got some real challenges ahead of him. Um, and yeah, so I was really devastated. I just felt like this is [00:23:00] just not fair that it's him, you know, like he's trying to get his life back on track with the time he has left on this earth and then to go through something like this.

But, you know, again, it, it sort of brings it back to who he is as a person and his, he's gonna be a, he's gonna be an amazing speaker at, at some point when he gets back on his feet. Um, you were talking about Judge Cup, I believe earlier. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, I'm sure he heard, you heard this guy's innocent.

You know, I, I promise I have this guy who's innocent, claiming he's innocent. Judge Klopp ends up believing it, but were there other law enforcement professionals who had a change of heart after you've presented them with all of this information pointing to Jeremy, Jeremy's confession, were there any professionals that participated in the case that came to a different conclusion that could look at it and say we were wrong?

Sort of, I, I, I'll give you an example. Uh, the, the, the people involved in Leo's case are pretty buttoned [00:24:00] down. And, you know, they're on a little island where they're just saying, the courts have spoken, the jury's spoken, that's gonna be their line. And don't trust a podcast. You know, that, that kind of thing.

I'll just tell you my experience, and I don't know, won't name any names, but like I go out and talk to a lot of prosecutors in the state of Florida. I've talked to a lot of professors. I talk to a lot. None of them believe that Leo is guilty when they, when they look at the documents and they look at the things I share with them.

Um, so yeah, in terms of the case, in the second season, I think when you get to set, um, episode four, you'll see we go back and look at the cab driver case from, um, from the first season, but in a different way. And it, it's mostly because people heard the podcast and reached out to me. And so the sheriff's department wouldn't talk to me.

They just, they, they were. Yeah, they just closed me off. But the lead detective involved in the case is the one that reached out to me. He's retired and so I wanna talk to him and I showed him all the evidence. I was trying to show that I think Jeremy did this. [00:25:00] You got, you went after the wrong guy. You know, it's a little bit complicated because he was investigated for getting, for possibly getting witnesses to lie.

And so it, it was a little tricky, but he, at the end of it, he did say like. Jeremy should be a suspect in this. And you know, he did admit that for the first time. And so there's that. But, um, I, I promise you in, in this, I bet if you went into the prosecutor's office, my guest, I bet you'd find a lot of people who will never say it out loud, but they know that Leo's innocent.

And the same with the. Same with the police and sheriffs. I've talked to deputies from, you know, the area and they're like, ah, listen, that podcast, that guy's definitely innocent. Unbelievable. Um, we're gonna move into season two, really, but I wanted to know, as you are such a, an accomplished journalist and Pulitzer Prize winner.

I'm gonna say it again because you haven't even said it once. Um, where, where does seeing Leo walk out of prison fall on your list of happiest moments in your career? I've only had a couple really happy [00:26:00] moments in my career, like, you know, that I, I say this just, it sounds, but it's true. Literary awards are, are great, but this is something completely different.

You know, I wrote a book, devil in Grove in 2012, and the response to that was so powerful that the governor ended up pardoning them, recommending the case be reopened, and then I got to go to the exoneration where, wow. I was sitting in court with the family members and basically heard them say, you know, on behalf of the state of Florida, we apologize.

These were wrongful convictions, wrongful accusations. All the charges are dismissed. That's what meant everything to the family because they were carrying this. And so to hug those families afterwards, um, you know, like they knew all along that this wasn't true, but like it takes a story to come out and it just sort of reinforces the power of storytelling.

Yeah. It's the one thing, like Leo has no legal recourses. There's nowhere to go for him, but a story might be able to be the thing that [00:27:00] gets him exonerated. So when, when he walked out. You know, he made it very clear like this was never gonna happen unless the story came out, that it had to be a story. And I remember I had a conversation with him and I said, Leo.

You know, you had to, he had to wait five years in prison while I worked on this. You know, like if you don't feel some guilt about that, like it just took that long to do this investigation. Yeah. That's how long my books take. It's five years. And you know, he knew he wasn't going anywhere. Um, and I said to him, look, I don't know if this is gonna make any difference, but I promise you I'm gonna change the narrative of your case that I know I'm gonna change.

'cause they had it wrong. And you know, he was like. That's all I really want. I, that just, I want people to know. Um, but to see that, you know, he says like, if this podcast didn't come out, I don't think I ever would've been paroled. Like they would've just kept doubling down on what they'd done, right. And done it in the dark where nobody cares, nobody sees it.

This time they had cameras out there, they're getting all this media attention. That's what changed his life. And you know, he knows that. And it's just [00:28:00] the most satisfying thing, you know, it just. It just compounds the tragedy of, of watching, you know, or seeing 36 years in prison and, and just knowing that like, this is the worst thing, you know, for somebody to be accused of murder, you can't even grieve wife because you're on, on the defense immediately and everything that went wrong in this trial and investigations so painful.

Yeah. So in season two, you kind of take a new turn and it's focusing on Jeremy Scott. So what has been the difference in how you approached this season versus how you handled season one? It just sort of, season two was not planned. You know, we didn't have a case that we wanted to go after. It just sort of developed from people coming outta the woodwork, people hearing the podcast the first season and saying, all right, I wanna talk now.

Um, I have something to tell. And they, they contacted me and it was all these people started reaching out to me saying, I have more to tell you. Um, and so by following up with them, 'cause I, I, you're never done with these stories. I mean, I feel like anything new comes in, I [00:29:00] wanna know about it. And. So I'm, I'm on this still.

Um, but like once, like Justin Jeremy's son came out. And just said, I wanna know about my father. And there was another angle because his, his mother, Jamie, was Jeremy's girlfriend at the time of these murders. And so she knew everything. Um, we tried to talk to her, uh, you know, she almost came to lunch and then she.

Canceled at the last Saturday. She didn't cancel, she just didn't show up. Mm-hmm. Um, just got nerves and didn't wanna do this and she kind of knew what she would be talking about and it's not easy. Right. Um, so I just started talking to her. Justin sort of said, I think you should talk to him. And, and so.

Jamie's whole story was that she had a lot to say and, and Justin had a lot of questions. Um, but she didn't feel comfortable telling them in person. So she kind of agreed like, well, I'll tell him for you, and then you tell him. Mm-hmm. And that's how we did it. Um, and then, you know. Justin got to listen to his mom's voice and hear things that he'd never heard [00:30:00] before.

Um, and we were sort of like the bridge relaying this, and that just felt like an interesting angle to pursue. And then, you know, once Jeremy started calling me and we, we were having conversations twice a week, um, it, I started to see a story develop. But you know, again, think about it, if you're like trying to put together a pocket, like where's your case?

And we're gonna like. Into the life of the killer this time. Yeah. Uh, it's, it's, it's not really done that often and yeah, it was challenging to just come up with a concept, but, but you gave Jeremy like, we got to learn enough about his past and just the horrific way he grew up that I. My heart went out to him even knowing he, you know, was convicted of doing all this stuff.

There's still this soft spot spot that knows I'm a mom that knows, like that's somebody's kid and you know, at one time he's just this innocent baby and this thing he's done isn't everything. As you were talking about. He may be a monster, but he's still a person and he's still, you know, had this life that was [00:31:00] very much affected by the things going around him.

So thinking of him. Being in prison by himself, not getting letters, no one's reaching out to him. He has nothing on commissary. It's hard to imagine. Yeah, it really isn't. You know, I, I've had, like, I've had prosecutors, like hard-nosed prosecutors tell me, like, I didn't think I'd ever have any sympathy for that kid.

I mean, when, but, but I do. I mean, and it's not like you're trying to tug at the heartstrings or, you know, do anything manipulative. We all agree that he's too dangerous a person to be out in society. He, he can't be rehabilitated. He's just impulsive. He's got, you know, he's got the brain damage from an accident that all of it's horrible.

You know, his whole life was, I mean, he was in a life of crime at the age of nine and homeless and living on the streets. I mean, that, you can't imagine like that. Mm-hmm. Like, of course bad things are gonna happen, and, and that's exactly what his life became. But you know. I remember Jamie said like, you know, he did have a sweet side.

He could be a good person that time. He wasn't a [00:32:00] monster and she recognized that. And, you know, it was just interesting to hear from Justin because, you know, he was told like, you're not your father. Like he was worried about that. Yeah. And, and he was, you're not your father, like. And then Jamie finally said to him like, he is his father, but he's the good side of Jeremy.

Hmm. And I started to see the good side of Jeremy when I started talking to him. When I saw how much he wanted to. Connect with family, the remorse he felt, you know, all the remorse that the state was looking for, Leo Schofield. 'cause he couldn't show remorse. They said you gotta keep him up because he is never apologized.

He's never said he is sorry for what he'd done. Well he's claiming to be innocent. That's why he hasn't done that. All the remorse is right there with Jeremy. I mean, Jeremy, I can't tell you how many times he's cried in front of me, like speaking about this. He gets very emotional about it. And, um. You know, it's just like when you see that and what, what more can you ask from somebody who's convicted and never getting out of prison?

The only thing you can ask of them is maybe ease the suffering of, of the [00:33:00] families, of the victims by doing the right thing. Seeing that Leo Schofield is not held accountable for a murder that he committed, and then maybe easing the families suffering by saying, these are things I did. If you're wondering about this, I'm the guy.

Yeah. So did you take a little bit of a different approach then working with Jeremy just because of the differences? Of course, you know, in season one you're working with someone who, you know, you came to believe is innocent and now you're working with the potential perpetrator of the crime. So that's of course two very different dynamics.

Did that affect the way you approached him and the facts, you know, around his involvement? Yeah, I mean, there was an interesting moment where. Like if you follow like these cases, these kind of cases, you often see that, um, the people, even if they're confessed killers, they have a very difficult time talking about the moment.

Um, they'll sometimes lead you right up to it. Like, I got in with the gas station. She gave me a ride, we drove back here. They'll give you all the details. Then it's like. I lost it and then here's what I did with the body and here's what I did next. And that, and they don't wanna talk [00:34:00] about that because think about it, the trauma that you're exposing, you don't wanna believe you are the kind of person who would do that.

Um, and so I've heard judges say it before, like you never get that moment from them because it's just too painful for them to recount even when they're confessing. And so there was a moment where I was investigating this one case that Jeremy confessed to, and I just had to say to him. I need you to give me that moment.

I need you to go there for me and gimme all this detail. I need everything. And he wrote me back and it's, I, it's, it's in the episode four, uh, he wrote me this letter. He goes, all right, Mr. King, I'm gonna tell you the whole story. I want you to know that I could be charged with this murder, but that's okay.

Here's what happened. And he wrote a six page detailed letter. Everything. He drew a map that's like absolutely. Correct. Beyond what the police could draw. You know, all his movements, where he went, what he did, the witnesses he recognized that he saw, you know, it was all there. And, um, he went there for me and, and, you know, I'm deeply [00:35:00] appreciative of that.

And he, he said, this is all true, and I could confirm just about everything that he said. And you know, when I brought it back to the lead detective, he's like, all right, that guy should be a suspect. Um, and so that was the approach. It's like you're asking somebody to recount, whereas, you know, you asked Leo.

I don't know where she was. I don't, I wasn't there. I can tell you about my search. Um, but now I'm going to the guy who did it and he can fill in the blanks and details. And so, you know, that's a responsibility. I, you know, you have to build up trust. Um, I think it's a way of talking to people sometimes.

You know, like I had never asked Leo if he killed his wife. Like, that's a not interesting question. It doesn't lead you anywhere. Tell me everything is a better question and go through it a million. Like, that's how you get to it. You start learning the details. When you confront somebody like that, it's, it's sort of like a TV moment I think, where they, you know, like, oh, he looked to the side when he said that to somebody.

It brings in all this behavioral stuff. It's like, it's not a really helpful thing. So I [00:36:00] never really asked Jeremy those kind of hard questions. I, I would just say, do you wanna talk about it? And, you know, sometimes he would, and sometimes he was. Agitated about other things and we'd talk about, you know, getting pepper sprayed in prison or something like that.

Um, but you know, there were times where he was in a good mood and he was willing to help and, and I just sort let him talk and it was just really a lot of listening. Yeah. Um, one of the things that jumped out to me, and I'm sure to everyone in that first episode of the second season is hearing Jeremy say he owes his life to Leo.

If his dad hadn't, I think he's, the words he used was taken the fall for, uh, if, if Leo hadn't taken the fall for his dad, then Justin would never be here. And just the realization of like, oh my gosh, like, I can't imagine. That's gotta be a conflict inside you as well, knowing that this guy has spent this time in prison, but to be grateful.

I don't know, it just was like a mind blowing moment I would've never put together. Um, and [00:37:00] obviously that's something he's lived with. Yeah, it was to me too. Like, I just never thought about that. Like, and he feels guilt about that and I just, I was kind of like overwhelmed and, you know, a couple weeks ago.

Gave Leo that episode and you know, he, he just, Gilbert, I got a hug. That guy, I was crying listening to that like, he should not feel any guilt about this. I'm like, can I, I gotta meet him. And that's the kind person Leo is, and. He's, that's who, that's who Leo is. And you know, and Justin just wants to meet Leo.

Like, he's just, he feels so bad about everything and you know, he's emotional about it too. And I think that's what I really love about this story. Like, everybody's just so full of emotion. Um, and so like raw and it became, uh, me too, like I was. Getting really moved by this stuff. Like being in the middle of this, I, I can't tell you how many times Leo has made me cry just talking to him.

Like he, it's just you're exposed to something. A thought that like is like, is Gandhi esque? You know, like, so Mahatma Gandhi is this kind of like, I've lived through this, or you know, [00:38:00] Nelson Mandela kind of stuff. Like you have to be a special person to survive this and to have this kind of attitude where you're the only one who has any empathy for the guy who actually killed your wife.

Like if nobody else cares about him, and it's just. It just reminds you, like you, I'm around somebody really special and I, I absorb as much as I can. 'cause he, he does change your life in a lot of ways. And Scott Couple tell you the same thing, and Scott's crus a bigger cry baby than I am. Sorry. You don't have to throw anybody under the bus, but if you're going to, I guess we, no.

So with your focus being on Jeremy in this season, what do you hope people get from this season, as you said? You know, he's never gonna get out. This isn't about wrongful conviction. What do you hope people leave from when they finish this season? You know, I just hope it exposes them to a side of humanity and a and a more deeper look that's not just black and white.

There's some gray areas in there. I like to write about the gray areas and, and what that just really interests me. Like there's more to this story. And so by just going so [00:39:00] deep into this one. I'm really not trying to like, manipulate people's emotions, but it's just, that is the story. There's, people feel these things really deeply and everybody we talk to has been deeply affected by Jeremy's violence.

Um, it ripples out. There's people who spent time in jail because of his crimes, Leo and also another man, and who got accused of a crime that Jeremy committed. Uh, he had, he was on trial for his life twice, uh, facing the electric chair. Um, and, you know, we talked to him. I think it's just like you are exposed to these people who have lived these horrors and how do they survive it?

Um, how did they get through it? Just talking to Jamie and Justin and, and you, you're, you're exposed to a side that you don't normally get in, in, in, in a criminal investigation or, or. You know, hearing, I don't know if you guys saw a show, I just saw this fairly recent adolescence on Netflix. Um, I've heard about it, but haven't watched it yet.

Well, it's phenomenal, but it, it just, it shows you that [00:40:00] other side and it's, it was so new to me on television because you're going into a another side. It's not, it's not the traditional good guys, bad guys kind of thing. You're, you're going deep into the other side. There's levels of humanity that you see that you've never seen anywhere before on television.

And I kind of feel like we were doing a very similar thing. We're going down this road and nobody, by the time they get to the end, nobody wonders why you did it. It's like, why didn't somebody do this? And I felt like that was the great takeaway from season two. Like, it, it, it's. It's a very different story, but it's still within that kind of Bone Valley universe.

Mm-hmm. And some of the characters overlap, but you're seeing a different side this time. Um, yeah. I, I don't know. It was just fascinating to explore. I agree. I love it. I read the, um, New York Times article that just came out yesterday that was amazing, of course. But there was this conversation they mentioned between Leo and Jeremy, and I'm not there yet in the podcast, but the thing I read about it, am I allowed to say this?

Yeah, yeah. There's no spoilers. Okay. [00:41:00] But the thing that I took from that was that you were there in that moment and were able to facilitate that. What was that? What was that like? That's like, you can't even script something like that. No, you really can't. And you know, like I think if you were to plan this, like Jeremy has wrote, written me a letter and, and said, I hope I someday hope to sit, sit down face to face with, with Leo and tell him I'm sorry for what I did to Michelle.

Like he'd made that clear and. And, and Leo, you know, had a, had a desire to do it, but like, how do you put something like that together? Jeremy's in solitary confinement again. Um, Leo's been in a motorcycle crash. How that, that's not gonna happen. Right? But if it was to happen, I think it would be something like.

It would be really scripted. And you'd be like, Leo, you're about to meet the man who you blah. Mm-hmm. And you know what it would look like. Mm-hmm. And ours looks nothing like that because it happened spontaneously. It's messy. They're talking over each other at times. And yet you get to these kernels of truth and you get to those moments anyway, and you just [00:42:00] feel it so raw and so spontaneous that.

It has even more power than if you tried to set it up and make it happen and be there to record it, you know? Um, and so that's sort of what I feel like our whole podcast has been about, is just keeping the mics on and talking to people and, and. Things happen. I think sometimes, you know, I'm, I'm a big fan of Brian Stevenson.

Uh, he wrote Just Mercy and he does a lot of this kind of work. Um, and, you know, his big thing is if you really wanna learn about injustice, you have to be proximate, you have to be on the ground to the people who have experienced injustice. And I think that's where we were. And I just, yeah. It was coincidental that Jeremy happened to call me at the time I was visiting Leo and mm-hmm.

I was like. Oh, this is a moment. Um, it wasn't scripted. We had no idea that Jeremy would call. I never know when he's gonna call me. Mm-hmm. I can't call him. Uh, and then it happened, and, you know. It just sort of fell into place because I knew who Jeremy was at [00:43:00] that point. I knew how he felt and I knew where, where Leo felt.

But as Leo says, and I won't root it 'cause people will wanna hear it, but I'll, yeah, I do wanna hear it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But you know, you can imagine there's even a moment where like, phone call ended and I hung up, but I didn't realize that I was still recording. Mm. And you catch a little bit of me and Leo talk and the reaction about that.

And then. You know, because Jeremy was in a public place at a kiosk around inmates. He was a little more guarded than I think he would normally be. Mm-hmm. But he called me later. We had a conversation about how did that feel? And I think that was even more revealing, uh, and more emotional in a lot of ways.

So I won't root it to you, but you just have to hear it because it's just, it sort of stays true to the whole story. Even going back to season one like this is, this is what happened. We know it, and this is, these guys have arrived at the truth. Maybe the state of Florida hasn't, but these guys have, and like I said earlier on, you're not guaranteed the truth in a courtroom.

Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:00] Uh, why do you think the state of Florida has not charged him with her murder? Even though, you know, we have fingerprints in Michelle's car, we now have his confession and a million other little pieces to this puzzle. Do you think they just haven't done it? Because in order to do that, they would have to then admit that Leo did not kill his wife?

Yeah, that's, that's pretty much it. I think there's a lot of like machinations that were happening at the time that made it even worse. So the prosecutor, John Aguero, who. Prosecuted Leo Schofield. A couple years later, two years, not even. Two years later, he prosecuted Jeremy Scott and put him away. Hmm. So, you know, Jeremy's story is like, uh, he knew I did it.

I told him I did it, and he didn't want to hear it. He wanted me to stick to the story about stealing stereos. That's why my fingerprints were found in the car. He said, stick to that. I'll help you with parole. I'm like, when you're in prison for life, you know you'll do anything. And so. Granted, I think that really did happen.

He met with Jeremy alone with no witnesses, no tape recorder, and put a deal in place. [00:45:00] And so that's what complicated things. Um, and it made, it made the whole appellate process kind of tainted at that point because Jeremy originally got up there and stuck to the story thinking he might get a deal and denied killing Michelle.

And then when he didn't get the help, he said, I'm telling the truth. And so I think that's a big part of it, I think. Today, you know, having to admit you're wrong. Maybe having to go back and look at that other, that prosecutor and see some of the other cases that he was involved in. You know, it opens up a, a can of beans or and of worms, whatever you wanna call it.

Um, and it's also this finality that I think the system sometimes clings to is like, we don't wanna be revisiting things. 'cause some story came out. We, the jury is what spoke and if, yeah, maybe the story comes out and shows somebody's innocent. But that's just part of the system now. Okay. And I think. That finale is just something that, you know, is, is, is a horrific impediment to wrongful convictions.

'cause every single wrongful conviction has a jury that convicted and an appellate court that upheld it. [00:46:00] And you can just hide behind that the rest of your days. But you're not getting closer to the truth all the time. Yeah. Will there be a Bone Valley three? Season three I. I'll give you the same answer I gave after one.

I have no idea. And I, you know, if I do, you know, like my thinking now is like, I, I love working in Florida. I love the people I've met. Um, I get help from all sides, law enforcement, judges, um. People tend to just like consuming the stories I write and, and they kind of know that I'm gonna put myself into it and tell it, right?

And so I get help from all different areas and I'm so grateful for that. The connections I have down there, I have people coming to me with stories all the time. And you know, I have other stories that have come to me that I started to look into. Um, I will tell you there is gonna be some bonus episodes coming, um, probably this summer.

Um, inside that bone value universe, a completely different thing, but. Leo's involved again, and um, I think that would be something [00:47:00] I'm, we're, we're, we've been looking into it, it's a really good case about somebody who's innocent, happens to be Leo's cellmate, and you think, whoa, what are the odds? Yeah.

What are the odds of that happening? But you know what? I brought them together was that they were both wrongfully convicted and they became best friends. So we're, we're exploring that too. Um, so yeah, there's some, there's some really interesting cases out there and I, I, I'm sure there will be in these valley fee.

I don't know exactly what it'll be, but I can tell you we're, we're looking into some things. Wow. Before we go, we do wanna play a little Florida man game with you. Since you are a fan of Florida, you are our sunshine sage. Um, so, and you know that we are from Florida as well, right? I did not know that.

Where did we not say that? We live in, we live in Central Florida. You're kidding me? So that's the whole thing. We're like, no, nobody told me that. Lakeland. Yeah. All of that stuff. We're all, we're in central Florida. We're like, Orlando, you're in. No, no, we're, but we know that we're in the Orlando area. Oh yeah.

Yeah. So that actually makes, listening to the podcast [00:48:00] that much more fascinating in learning about the story that much more fascinating because I am very familiar with a lot of the places that are mentioned in the podcast. And so it's, um. It's very easy to visualize Yeah. Things that, you know, are being talked about in the story.

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. I, I, I thought you might appreciate it because it is like, it's like going back to the eighties and mm-hmm. It's an era that's just so kind of fascinating to me visually and, and yeah. Sound wise and, uh, you know, and then I don't, I'll ask you guys, have you ever heard of the area called Bone Valley before?

I had not. I was actually really surprised when I started the podcast that I was like, why? What does this think? Yeah. I've never heard of it. Yeah. I spent a ton of time in central Florida, like, you know, my last couple books were based, you know, right around Orlando and like, I'd never heard of Bone Valley before as this area.

Um, and, and a lot of Floridians tell me I've never heard that before. Mm-hmm. Um, but. That's what's great about Florida. There's stuff out there you never know. Absolutely. Yeah. And Polk County is like its own little world, um, as opposed to the rest of the state. Yes. But it's [00:49:00] very, if you say something happened in Polk County, it's a different picture.

Everyone's like, oh, okay. I get it. Yeah. Well, you know, it's so funny you say that because I did two stories in Lake County. Mm-hmm. And I was like, oh, okay. How bad can it be? Like I went through Lake County and then you go, whoa, guess it could be pretty bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so I just have five quick true false questions, Florida man style.

So the first one is. A Florida man attempted to rob a bank using a live alligator as a weapon. Is that true or false? I know, I know. I saw the video of a man did that at a convenience store, taking an alligator in there, but I don't know, I gotta say true. Got outta it. It's true. Um, back in 2018, a man used a, I guess this was more than once, this was at a bank that this happened.

Uh, he tried to use a live alligator demanding money, or he threatened to release. The alligator. So the same guy did the same trick more than once. He took an alligator to it, maybe, I don't know. Or there's two separate people, which I think is more upsetting. Um, yeah, it's second question is Florida man was arrested for riding a bicycle [00:50:00] through a Walmart while dressed as Spider-Man.

I'm happy he had clothes on, but is that true or false? I'm gonna say false on that one. I don't know why. Okay. I'm sorry to tell you. You've lost that one. It's true. Yeah. He was arrested, caused a scene. You know, I think it's probably because he was wearing clothes. That's probably what tripped you there.

Yeah. Yeah. That, that's what threw me, for sure. Okay. Third one is Florida man. Attempted to pay for his fast food with a bag of marijuana. Gotta be true. That has to be true. That's it's true. It's true. Um, the next one is Florida Man was arrested for trying to carjack a police cruiser while officers were inside.

I'm, I'm just gonna go true on all of them now. Like it's gotta have happened, right? I had to give you one false. Sorry that one was false. I'm terrible. I knew I could get you somewhere in there. The last one is a Florida man was arrested for trying to trade his pet python for beer. I totally believe that one a hundred percent.

Yeah. Absolutely true. That be South Florida, right? I'm sure. I'm sure. Um, [00:51:00] yeah. So thank you for playing that. I hope you had fun with that. I love the brand. Love the fact that I got too wrong. Yeah, I mean that, that tells, that tells more about the state of Florida because you just never know. It really does.

You do never know. You really don't ever know. You're still a sunshine sage and we are so thankful that you came on. Is there anything else you want us to know, uh, going into this season or about you, the show? Anything? No, there's really not. I just, I just hope people really just enjoy listening to it. I don't know if joy is the right word sometimes because it's emotional and you're gonna feel stuff in this.

And like sometimes people are like, boy, do I really want to, but I'm finding out the answer is yes because people are like messaging me, like did the whole season and like the same day. Uh, so I'm not expecting that. But no, I just think, you know, listen to it, keep an open mind and um, just I think enjoy the people and especially Leo.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been a total delight. Our listeners are gonna love this, and just so thankful you came on to talk to [00:52:00] us.