The Murder of Karen Grammer: Kelsey Grammer's Sister and the Colorado Springs Killing Spree

On July 9, 1975, an aspiring actor named Kelsey Grammer boarded a flight to Colorado Springs to identify the body of his younger sister, Karen Grammer. Before he became known as Frasier Crane, Kelsey was a big brother whose world was shattered when Karen was murdered just weeks before her 19th birthday.

Karen, whom her brother described as "funny and free-spirited," had moved to Colorado Springs, Colorado, after high school. On July 1, 1975, she was abducted outside the Red Lobster restaurant where she worked. The abduction was carried out by Freddie Lee Glenn and his accomplices.

Karen’s murder was part of a terrifying spree that rattled the city of Colorado Springs. She was kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and brutally stabbed. Kelsey Grammer was tasked with the haunting experience of identifying his sister's body.

Freddie Lee Glenn was convicted of first-degree murder for her death and is currently serving a life sentence. Kelsey Grammer has personally confronted his sister's killer at parole hearings, stating that he lives with the tragedy every day of his life. This is the tragic story of Karen Grammer, a life taken too soon, and one family's decades-long search for peace.

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TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] On July 9th, 1975, a 20-year-old aspiring actor named Kelsey Grammar boarded a flight to Colorado, not for a role or an audition, but to identify the body of his little sister Before he became known as Frazier Crane, Kelsey was just a big brother who shared a close bond with his sister Karen, when she was murdered just weeks before her 19th birthday, it shattered his world.

Hey guys, and welcome to the Moms and Mysteries podcast. A True Crime Podcast featuring myself, Mandy, and my dear friend Melissa. Hi, Melissa. Hi Mandy. How are you? I'm doing great, Melissa. How are you doing? I'm wonderful. Thank you so much for asking Mandy. I did something so fun this week and I think you should do it, and you may have done it before, but I fully recommend it if you're coming to Orlando.

I think people should do it. It's the Outta Control Magic Comedy Dinner Show. It's at WonderWorks. Fun. So fun. I think the tickets were like $25. Me and my sister brought our two boys and uh, came with pizza salad, dessert. They're [00:01:00] really good with food allergies and it was a really fun magic show where he's taking people up on the stage and he's done it for like 25 years.

Like it's the longest running dinner theater, magic comedy thing, and I thought it was so much fun. I don't know. I think you would. Yeah, I think you would enjoy it. No. Yeah. It sounds like at least your younger boy would enjoy it. I don't know if the older one, there's like an age where you get kind of too cool for this stuff and um, yeah.

You just don't enjoy anything when you're 15, 16. Yeah. Everything. I was, I was sitting next to a teenager and I was like, Ugh, this is gonna suck. Right? And then she was cracking up the whole time, so I was like, okay. Yeah, I was a lot of fun. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll have to look into that. I definitely think my youngest would really enjoy that.

And uh, now his older brother is off usually doing other things with his friends, so that's something, right. Sounds fun. I could take, uh, the little one too. Yeah, it's really fun. You'll like it. So we'll get right into the story this week. There is a lot to cover and this is a story that has. Been in the media a lot before and actually kind of is currently, it was talked about by Kelsey Grammar himself, so this is a case that we're excited to [00:02:00] share this week.

Karen Grammar was born on July 15th, 1956 to Sally and Alan Grammar. She was smart as a whip and talented as a poet, and she lived her life with joy and compassion. Karen and her brother Kelsey were exceptionally close and they had been through a lot together in their childhood. After their parents divorced, their dad moved to the Virgin Islands and was rarely seen again.

Then in April of 1968, their father was murdered at his home in St. Thomas, and we won't go into a ton of detail on his murder, but it appears that he was murdered in retaliation for racism. So Kelsey and Karen were raised by their mom and their grandparents in Florida. Their grandfather, Gordon was a war hero and someone who offered stability in their lives.

He became a father figure to the kids. Kelsey and Karen spent a lot of time boating up and down the waterway between the barrier islands and the Florida mainland. After Gordon passed away, Kelsey felt the pressure to become the [00:03:00] man of the house and his bond with his sister Karen, only deepened. Kelsey once said that they were each other's refuge.

In the mid 1970s, Karen had just graduated high school a year early, and she went on to attend Berry College in Georgia, that after one semester, she decided that it wasn't for her. Soon she relocated to Colorado Springs with a roommate and started working at Red Lobster. Karen had a boyfriend and plans for the future.

Meanwhile, Kelsey had gone off to New York to attend Julliard. On June 30th, 1975, Karen called her brother and told him that she'd be coming home to Florida after the 4th of July. But then when Kelsey didn't hear from her again and couldn't get ahold of her, he did the only thing he could think to do, which was to contact the police.

What he didn't know yet was that Colorado Springs police were already investigating a horrifying crime scene and struggling to identify their victim back on July 1st, the day after Karen's last [00:04:00] call to her brother, a resident returning home at around 3:00 AM found the body of a young woman lying in a pool of blood on their porch.

There was blood near the doorbell that looked like Karen had tried to ring it for help. She had been stabbed in the neck so deeply that she was nearly decapitated and she had other wounds on her back and her hand. The coroner believed that she had lightly fought back against her attacker and then crawled as much as 800 feet trying to get help before she collapsed and died.

It was estimated that it took between five and 10 minutes for Karen to bleed out. When Karen's body was discovered, she had no form of ID on her and no one knew who she was. Nearly a week passed before Karen's roommate finally reported her missing. The roommate told police she hadn't seen Karen since June 30th, and the description she gave of her matched the description of the body that was found.

On July 8th, detective showed up at Kelsey's home in Florida and told him they believed his sister was a Jane Doe that was found in Colorado. Kelsey [00:05:00] flew out the next day to identify her body. Police would eventually put the pieces together about what happened that night. They believed that Karen had gone to Red Lobster to wait for her boyfriend to get off work around 11:30 PM Another employee saw Karen standing outside in the parking lot with three men.

Minutes later, two of those men walked into the restaurant and attempted a robbery, but they left when the manager intervened. By the time Karen's boyfriend came out, Karen was gone, and she never made it home. A neighbor told police that they heard a scream around 2:30 AM which was shortly before Karen's body was discovered as it would turn out, Karen was actually the fourth person murdered in Colorado Springs.

In just a two week span, two weeks before Karen was murdered, a truck driver traveling along Highway one 15 in the early morning hours of June 17th came across a terrifying site. There was an abandoned truck riddled with bullets and a young man lying dead nearby. The victim was Francis Gerald Rish, [00:06:00] who went by Jerry.

He was just 19 years old. Jerry had grown up in Grand Junction and Palisade, Colorado, and he was one of eight siblings. He had joined the Army in January of the previous year, and at the time of his death, he was stationed at Fort Carson just outside of Colorado Springs. Jerry was a specialist for and assigned to a military intelligence unit.

In his downtime, he loved to hunt and fish or anything that just got him outdoors. The hours before his death, Jerry had been driving back to base after spending the weekend with his family. Somewhere along the way he pulled into a picnic area to rest, and that's when he was violently ambushed.

Investigators determined that Jerry was actually asleep inside of his truck. When someone attacked him, he woke up probably in a panic and tried to run away. He drove his truck through a barbed wire fence, down a steep embankment through a field, and plowed through another fence before coming to a stop at the opposite side of the highway [00:07:00] from where he had started, but the damage had already been done.

The front windshield of Jerry's truck had been blasted with bullets, and there were 11 holes in total with more on the side of the vehicle. Jerry's wallet was missing and investigators believed this was a targeted attack and that more than one weapon had been used. An autopsy revealed that Jerry had been shot twice, once in the chest and once in the back.

One of the shots may have been fired after Jerry got outta the truck in an attempt to flee. His time of death was estimated at around 12:30 AM. Just two days after Jerry was ambushed and killed, another man was found shot in the head on the side of the road. This man's name was Daniel Van Lone, and his story is just as heartbreaking.

Daniel was from New York and he was a military man through and through. He enlisted in the Army in 1964 and served overseas in Korea and Vietnam before being discharged in 1971. After the military, he built a life for himself and his [00:08:00] family, which included his wife, Mary, and their two sons. He also had five other stepchildren.

By 1975, Daniel and his family had settled in Colorado Springs where he was working as a line cook at the Four Seasons motor in on the evening of June 18th, he worked his usual three to 11:00 PM shift. He was last seen alive at around 11:30 PM watching TV in the employee lounge. Just an hour later, around 12:30 AM a state patrolman driving along genital road, spotted something alarming, a man lying motionless near the side of the road, only about a mile from the Four Seasons, and of course it was Daniel.

Daniel had a scarf tied over his face and had been shot in the right temple at near point blank range despite having severe injuries. Daniel was actually unconscious but still alive when he was found. He was rushed to the hospital, but he was pronounced dead about two hours later. When police arrived at the scene, they noticed that Daniel was still holding his [00:09:00] wallet.

It was completely empty, but he had it clutched in one hand as though he was hanging onto it during the struggle. By June 24th, police still had no solid leads and said they were working full-time on it, but they didn't believe Daniel's murder was connected to Jerry's. But that was suit and change because within days yet another victim was found.

This time the victim was Winford prophet, and he was found in a park near Prospect Lake. Winford was born on January 7th, 1956, and had spent time living in Ohio, Nebraska, and Florida. He had one sister and two brothers, and he was married to his high school sweetheart named Kathy. They were actually newlyweds and Winford had enlisted in the military not long after they got married.

At just 19 years old, Winford was serving as a private first class at Fort Carson and was part of the headquarters company, first Battalion 77th Armor. But on the night of June 27th, everything changed [00:10:00] that night. Winford was riding around with a 17-year-old friend named Jeffrey, and they were looking to buy a small amount of marijuana.

Jeffrey gave Winford a $10 bill for this transaction, and then at some point they approached two strangers in a car and asked if they knew where to buy any marijuana, and these strangers said, yes. Winford and Jeffrey followed the two men to a park near Prospect Lake there. Winford left Jerry in the car and walked off with one of the men to a secluded spot while the other man stayed behind.

Not long after the man who left with Winford returned, but Winford didn't come back. He approached Jeffrey, who was still waiting in the car, and Jeffrey immediately sensed that something was off, but he didn't realize that Winford had been attacked. He just suspected that the stranger might actually be a narcotics officer or something.

So Jeffrey panicked and started running straight into a lit area of the park. The man chased him for a moment, but backed off when Jeffrey did finally [00:11:00] reach the light. Around that same time, residents at a nearby home on Prospect Lake Drive heard someone on their front porch, and when they opened the door, they saw Winford.

He had been stabbed just below the heart with a wound that was between six to 10 inches deep. But despite that, he managed to walk from wherever he was attacked, all the way to the nearest house. He was still clutching that $10 Bill meant to buy the marijuana with. The people inside the house called for help and Winford was rushed to a hospital and taken into surgery, but it was too late.

He died a few hours later. What's interesting about Win Ford's murder is that unlike the two men before him, Winford was stabbed rather than shot. And in a chilling parallel, Winford managed to make it to someone's porch before collapsing. Just like Karen Grammar, who was found murdered. Days later. At the time, investigators insisted that Karen's case was not connected to any of these others.

And we have so much more to get into after a quick break to hear a word from this week's [00:12:00] sponsors. And now back to the episode. So before the break, we were discussing this two weeks of basically terror in Colorado Springs where there are. Has been murder after murder, some involving guns. And now, more recently there has been, the last murder that we spoke about was, uh, a stabbing.

So police are trying to put together exactly what's going on, who's involved, if those even have anything to do with each other. And so, and yet another twist. Just hours after Karen's body was found, another man was murdered. And this man was named Milton Abramson. Milton was born in New York in 1916, and he served in the army.

He was 64 years old at the time of his murder and had lived a long, quiet life. At the time of his death. He was working as a cab driver for the El Paso Cab company, which exclusively served Fort Carson. And his job was simple. He was transporting soldiers around the military base. On that July 1st, his routine job turned deadly.

There are two different accounts of [00:13:00] how Milton crossed paths with the men who would ultimately kill him. According to Fort Carson's public Information Officer Milton Radio dispatched around 9:50 PM and said that two men had flagged down on Butts Road. He said he was taking them to Butts Field, which was located on the southern side of the base.

This was the last time anyone ever heard from him. About 45 minutes later, dispatch tried to reach him again and got no response. So they contacted military police and launched a search. The FBI had a different version of what they believe happened. They claimed that Milton had picked up the two men at the International House canteen at around 11:00 PM that same night at 1:00 AM on July 2nd.

Just one hour after Karen Grammar's body was found, searchers found Milton's cab abandoned in a ditch along the access road to Butts Field. The vehicle was spattered with blood. Milton was gone hours later. Milton's body was found about three and a half miles away from the cab. He [00:14:00] had been brutally murdered, stabbed more than three dozen times in the neck, chest, and stomach, and his throat was slashed.

But the question was, why on earth would a 64-year-old veteran driving a cab be killed in such a brutal way with five murders in less than 15 days? Authorities really had their hands full, but the most terrifying part was that the murders weren't over yet. By July 2nd, a task force was formed to try and get to the bottom of these brutal murders, ravaging the city.

It was clear to police that this wasn't just a series of isolated crimes. A pattern was actually starting to emerge. Now, investigators from the sheriff's office, the military and the city police joined together and at some point, the FBI did get involved as well, but not everyone was on the same page. On July 4th, police announced that there was no connection between any of the murders and claimed the motives were all quite different.

The FBI disagreed, and one agent said that you just can't rule out a connection when six people are murdered in such a [00:15:00] short span of time in the same area, which, yeah, valid point. And then it happened again. On July 25th, just over three weeks after Karen's death, police got a call from a resident on Baylor Drive in Colorado Springs.

Just after 10:00 PM this caller reported hearing gunshots and when police arrived, they found 21-year-old Winslow Douglas Watson III, lying on the curb. Winslow had been shot three times in the head and once in the hand he was dead. When officers arrived. Winslow had grown up in Philadelphia and moved to Colorado Springs in 1974.

At the time of his murder, he was unemployed and living with a roommate named Michael Corbett, and that name would soon become very important. At the scene of Winslow's murder, police found some very odd details. There was a bottle of wine in a paper bag, an empty matchbook in Winslow's hand and a cigarette nearby.

His wallet was still in his pocket, completely untouched. [00:16:00] There was no sign of robbery or struggle. Just a young man shot in cold blood and left on the side of the road. After Winslow's murder, things went quiet for a little while until a month later when violence erupted again. At around 1:00 AM on August 30th, a group of six men, two of whom were Fort Carson soldiers, arrived at Bell's Nightingale nightclub in Colorado Springs.

As they walked toward the entrance, gunshots rang out. They were ambushed by two men with shotgun in a targeted full-blown attack. Chaos erupted and when the shooting came to a halt, one man was left dead and that man was 19-year-old. Ricky Allen Lewis. Ricky had grown up in Colorado Springs and come from a large family with three brothers and four sisters.

He was shot at close range in the heart and died instantly. Five other men were taken to the hospital, but miraculously they all survived. People at the club were able to identify one of the shooters as a [00:17:00] Fort Carson soldier named Michael Corbett, and yes, we're talking about the same Michael Corbett who'd been living with Winslow Watson weeks before he was murdered.

As it would turn out, Michael Corbett wasn't just any regular soldier. He was a private first class trained in martial arts and extremely skilled with a knife. Within hours, a manhunt was underway and for the first time, investigators had a real lead to follow hours after the shooting, military police from Fort Carson tracked Michael down.

When they found him, he was with another soldier named Mitchell Martin, and in their possession were two shotguns. One was a 12 gauge and one was a 20 gauge, which were the exact same gauges used to shoot. Ricky Lewis and his friends, both of these men were read their Miranda rights and brought in for questioning.

During the interview, Michael admitted that the 12 gauge shotgun was his and said the 20 gauge belonged to Martin Police. Informed him that they planned to run ballistic tests to determine if these guns were a match for the ones used in the shooting, [00:18:00] and Michael really didn't say much after that.

That's when the military police stopped the interview. A surprising twist. They actually let Michael go, but just a few hours later, Michael actually returned to speak with the sheriff's detectives. He basically gave the same statements as before and. He was let go. Again, it's unclear exactly whether Mitchell Martin actually said anything to the police, but both men were under serious suspicion.

When the ballistics test results came back, there wasn't enough to definitively prove which of these two men had fired the fatal shot, but it wasn't enough to move forward. Michael and Mitchell were both arrested and charged with first degree murder for Ricky's death. Five counts of first degree assault for the men who survived the nightclub shooting and one count of second degree assault.

At that point, investigators had their foot in the right door, but what they didn't realize yet was that they weren't just dealing with a pair of shooters. And it also wasn't just about Ricky Lewis. The truth would soon [00:19:00] emerge tying Michael Mitchell and one other man to nearly every single murder in that Colorado Spring spree that had happened that summer.

Once they had Michael and Mitchell in custody, they started looking into their backgrounds and immediately noticed that Michael was roommates with one of the murder victims, one of those that had just been found a few weeks earlier. Then a break in the case came when a Fort Carson soldier named Larry Dunn was arrested on an unrelated charge, but while he was in custody.

Larry told the investigators that he had information about two of the Colorado Springs murders. He specifically mentioned the murders of Daniel Von Lone and Karen Grammar. Larry alleged that he was actually present for both of those murders and he was willing to tell the detectives everything. Larry agreed to testify in exchange for immunity and what he revealed would blow the case wide open.

According to Larry, in mid-June, he was staying with a civilian employee from Fort Carson, named Freddie Glenn. Freddie [00:20:00] wasn't a soldier, but he'd been hanging around the base. He drifted between jobs and according to Larry, he was more than just a petty criminal. He was actually the ringleader. On the night of June 18th, Larry Michael Corbett and Freddie Glenn had been hanging out together.

They smoked some weed, drank some wine, and talked about going to rob someone. The plan was always to do a violent robbery, and at 1.1 of the men said that if they were identified during the commission of this robbery, the person they were robbing would have to die that night. All three of them piled into a car and Michael brought his gun along with them.

They headed toward the Four Seasons motor in where Daniel Van Lone had just finished his evening shift. The men saw Daniel walking to his car and approached him. Michael and Larry got outta the car while Freddy stayed parked nearby. When the men got out of the car, Larry had the gun and he and Michael walked up to Daniel and ordered him to get out of his vehicle.

Larry then held Daniel at gunpoint and [00:21:00] walked him back to Freddy's car where he was blindfolded with a scarf and forced to get inside, and then they drove toward Janelle Road. Larry told the investigators that Daniel begged for his life during the ride and told them about his wife and family, and promised not to say anything if they let him go.

But once they got to a remote area, Michael and Larry took Daniel out of the car and ordered him to lay on the ground. Michael then motioned for Larry to hand over the gun, and then he shot Daniel in the head from just one inch away. After terrorizing and executing an innocent man, they robbed him of the whole 50 cents that he had in his pocket.

That's not all Larry Shared. Next, he explained what happened in the murder of Karen Grammar, and it was far more horrifying than anyone could have imagined. Larry claimed that on the evening of June 30th, he and Freddie Glenn were throwing a party at their apartment. Michael Corbett was there, but he supposedly left before anything happened that night.

There was also a [00:22:00] 20-year-old there named Eric McLeod. As the night were on, Larry, Freddie and Eric drank wine and smoked marijuana before they decided that they wanted to go out and commit a robbery. Larry brought a 38 revolver and Eric had a knife. They drove aimlessly for a while until Larry suggested that they rob the Red Lobster restaurant.

When they arrived, Freddie stayed in the car while Larry and Eric approached the restaurant. Karen was sitting outside when the men walked up. Larry said that he told Eric to go get Karen to come with them, and when she resisted, Eric showed her a gun, they forced her into the car where Freddie was waiting in the front seat.

After they abducted Karen, they actually did attempt to rob the restaurant, but as they walked inside, a man asked what they were doing and Larry got spooked. So they fled before they could pull it off, which is amazing to me. These guys are out here killing people and a manager's. Just asking you about what you're doing there is what sets you off.

That's Well, yeah, that's wild to thing because what you gonna do, [00:23:00] you can't kill him in the middle of a restaurant full of people. Right. So like that's the situation. It's like, you know. Yeah. They like to take people, they're powers people, innocent people. Yeah. Out into the middle of nowhere and do this to them where no one can help.

So yeah, of course they're not gonna do any, you know, they're not gonna take it that far in the middle of a restaurant. Right from there with a terrified Karen in the car. They drove around looking for a store to Rob. They stopped at a quick way store, but it was closed, so they went to a seven 11 on East Pikes Peak Avenue.

Larry and Eric went inside and robbed the store and got away with $60 in cash and some cheap jewelry. One of the most infuriating things in the story to me is how little money they're getting in these robberies. Absolutely. Like there's it. The robbery feels like such an after. Of, of all of this, like the murder seems to be fully the primary reason.

'cause there's no reason you go to these tiny places or this random girl sitting outside of a ru. Like none of that makes sense. You're no, you're there to kill people and if you get some money, great. Next, they drove to [00:24:00] Eric's apartment, and along the way Karen pleaded with the men not to kill her, and said she would do anything they wanted if they let her live.

But the men ignored her at the apartment. Freddie and Karen went into the bedroom and Freddie raped her. While that was going on, Larry and Eric sat in the other room talking about what they should do. Neither of them wanted to kill Karen apparently. Larry actually said that if the girl was going to be killed, Freddie was going to have to be the one to do it.

About 30 minutes later, Freddie came out of the bedroom and Eric went in to unleash another brutal attack on Karen, and when he was done, Larry went in after him. So at that point, the three men made the decision that Karen would need to be killed. Before they left the apartment, Eric handed Freddie a knife.

They got back into the car this time with Larry driving. Eric was in the passenger seat, and Freddie and Karen were in the back. They drove to a dark alley, turned off the headlights and stopped. Freddie and Karen got outta the car and Larry and Eric watched as Freddie stabbed [00:25:00] Karen in the throat. Karen collapsed and was left there alone to die.

The men returned to Larry and Freddy's apartment and Eric went home shortly after. Freddy still had blood on his hands and on the car. He claimed that he just threw the knife away. Larry and Freddy then smoked more marijuana and went to bed as if nothing happened. So once these details started to emerge, investigators were able to start holding people accountable for this brutal string of murders.

The first person was Eric Mcle. He was arrested and charged with the kidnapping, rape and murder of Karen Grammar, along with the robbery of the seven 11 store that same night. Then in a move that left many people shocked, Eric took a plea deal. He pleaded guilty to rape and robbery in exchange for dropping the kidnapping and murder charges.

Unreal, unreal. He was sentenced to just 15 to 20 years. Freddie Glenn, the man who stabbed Karen to death was arrested and charged with her rape, kidnapping, and capital [00:26:00] murder, as well as the murder of Daniel Van Lone. He pleaded not guilty and would later stand trial. Meanwhile, Mitchell Martin, the soldier who was arrested alongside Michael Corbett, sat down with detectives and they offered him a deal.

If he gave a full confession, they'd offer a reduced charge of accessory to murder. Mitchell took this deal. He told investigators that Michael and Freddie were the ones who killed Winford. Prophet, the soldier who was lured to Prospect Lake with that promise of buying marijuana. And when he was asked why Michael would kill someone over a drug deal, Mitchell said it was because Winford might be able to identify him, might be able to, this doesn't make any sense, no whatsoever.

Uh, Mitchell also confirmed that Michael was the one who fired the shotgun outside the nightclub the night that Ricky Lewis was killed. And Mitchell said he drove the getaway car. Based on these confessions, Michael Corbett was charged with three additional counts of first degree murder for the deaths of Daniel Van Lone, Winford Prophet, and Winslow [00:27:00] Watson, who was his own roommate.

He pleaded not guilty and would be tried separately from Freddy. At this point though, there were still two murders that were left unsolved. No one was held accountable for the murder of Jerry Rish, the young soldier who was ambushed while he slept in his truck, or for Milton Abramson, the cab driver, who was stabbed over 30 times and dumped in a ditch, and their cases actually remained open and unsolved to this day.

Whoa. As for Kelsey Grammar, the years that followed his sister's brutal murder were absolutely agonizing for him. He described feeling out of touch with reality, and he was just living in New York with a girlfriend that really didn't know how to help him. He spent his nights roaming the city streets, pacing around, just spiraling and deliberately wandering into dark alleys, looking for fights.

Eventually Kelsey started auditioning again, and in January, six months after Karen's death, he was offered a spot with a Shakespeare company in San Diego. And that opportunity is what launched his acting career. [00:28:00] Even as the world saw him as a shining star on Cheers and Frazier behind the scenes, he was battling his grief and addiction.

He was drinking heavily using cocaine and constantly pushing himself to the edge. Kelsey himself later said, it's remarkable that I survived some of that. I might be asleep on one of the benches, on the cheer set, and then when it was my turn, I'd just stand up and go do it, which is honestly, it's so sad to hear that, especially.

I used to, my mom used to love watching Frazier when I was growing up, so I You love Frazier. That was always on. And so that was one of the TV like sitcoms that I remember like Right. Just having on in my house all the time. And I always loved it too. I always thought it was very funny, but just thinking about what he was actually going through during that time, like while he was working on the, those projects is just absolutely so heartbreaking.

Yeah. And we have more to get into after one last break to hear a word from this week's sponsors. And now back to the episode. Before the break, we were discussing [00:29:00] these plea deals that some of these guys were taking, and also what Kelsey Grammar, who's who we really know in this story, what he was going through after his sister's murder.

And so after months of investigation and confessions, Freddie Glenn's trial for the murder of Daniel Van Lone began on February 10th, 1976. If he was found guilty of first degree murder, he would be eligible for the death penalty. Prosecutors made their case clear. It didn't matter whether Freddy had pulled the trigger under the law of someone's killed during the course of an armed robbery.

Everyone involved in that robbery can be held equally responsible. According to the prosecution, Freddy, Michael Corbett and Larry Dunn decided they needed money, so they went looking for an innocent person to Rob. And Daniel Van Lone was the unlucky victim. He was taken at gunpoint. Blindfolded shoved into their car and then executed and left on the side of the road.

Larry took the stand and detailed everything that happened that night, but Freddie [00:30:00] told a different story. Freddie claimed that he had no idea what was going on and that he was blindsided when Larry and Michael brought Daniel over to his car in the parking lot of the Four Seasons. He said there was absolutely no discussion about robbing anyone and no mention of a weapon.

According to him, he was just there, which is very convenient to say like, I had nothing to do with any of this. I just was there. I didn't know they were doing that. Right. That's a wild thing to say. Freddy said he drove them all to genital Road as instructed, but he didn't hear what was going on during the ride because the gravel hitting the car was too loud.

He said, Larry and Michael brought Daniel outside the car, but it was so dark. Freddy wasn't able to see anything, but he said he did hear the gunshot. Then the others came back in the car and said, quote, let's get out of here. Freddy said he didn't call the police or ask for help because he was scared, confused, and high.

He said he had taken two hits of acid, smoked some marijuana, and drank a little wine that day. He said Michael was a tough [00:31:00] dude and a bad fella, and he didn't wanna mess with him. Prosecutors brought in Dr. Terry Jones, a doctor who had previously interviewed Freddy. Dr. Jones testified that Freddy told him a very different story during that interview.

He told the doctor that he did hear Michael and Larry asking Daniel how much money he had. Daniel said he had 50 cents. He also told Dr. Jones that he saw Michael McDaniel lie down on the ground and watched as Michael race his arm and then heard the shot. On February 14th, the jury returned with a verdict.

Freddy was found guilty of first degree murder and he was sentenced to life in prison. Michael Corbett also went to trial for Daniel Van L's murder and prosecutors presented a similar case as Freddy's, and they also had Larry testify as their main witness. The defense did not offer any evidence, but said Larry was the killer and not Michael.

In the end, Michael was found guilty of first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison. Just one month after he was convicted in Daniel's murder, Freddie Glenn was [00:32:00] back in the courtroom to stand trial for the kidnapping, rape and murder of Karen Grammar. This trial began on March 11th, 1976, and if he was found guilty, he would be eligible for the death penalty.

Prosecutors laid it all out for the jury. They acknowledged that there had been multiple men involved in Karen's kidnapping and assault, but said that it was Freddie who stabbed her in the throat and left her to bleed out. Just like in the previous trial, Larry Dunn was the star witness for the prosecution.

He gave a very detailed and horrific account of what happened that night. This time, Freddy's defense team had a different strategy. They leaned heavily on the idea that Freddy had been high on LSD marijuana and wine, and therefore he was not in control of his actions. They also tried to shift the blame onto Larry Dunn and suggested that he was the person truly responsible for Karen's kidnapping and murder.

Michael Corbett was called to the stand, but he didn't really give them a whole lot. He pleaded the fifth on most questions, especially when it came to who else was in the [00:33:00] apartment and what conversations he had with Freddie that night. He did admit that he had stopped by Freddy's Place around 7:00 PM on June 30th.

Michael said that he saw acid and marijuana in the apartment and alleged that Freddie had consumed quite a bit. He said Freddie was spaced out and wasn't himself, but the jury wasn't buying it. After just five days of testimony, they finally had a verdict. Freddie Glenn was guilty on all counts. The jury recommended the death penalty for Karen's murder, which the judge did later impose.

By April, Michael Corbett was up for another trial this time for the murder of Winford. Prophet prosecutors told the jury that Michael had made a habit of eliminating anyone who happened to see his face, and in the case of Winford, all he did was approach Michael and Freddie looking to buy pot. And for that he was stabbed in the chest and left to die, all while he's still clutching this $10 bill.

Prosecutors suggested that the plan was to kill Winston's friend Jeffrey that night too, but [00:34:00] they just couldn't get to him in time. Prosecutors said Michael was a machine. He was trained and he was geared for killing. One witness testified that on the day after Winford was murdered, Michael admitted to killing a man who wanted to buy marijuana and even pulled out a knife to show the person what he claimed were bloodstains.

But the witness said they could only see faint gray marks. The witness said that Michael killed Winston for money. Another witness said that Michael told him about the attack as well. Mitchell Martin, who had already confessed to being involved and was not fully cooperating with the prosecutors, testified that Michael confessed to stabbing Winston.

The defense called the murder a crime of impulse and said it wasn't a planned attack, and therefore was not first degree murder at the most. They said he should be convicted of second degree murder, but jurors disagreed. On April 24th, they found Michael guilty of first degree murder in the death of Winford profit.

Freddie Glenn also stood trial for Winston's murder that his case was moved to Boulder due to all the coverage in [00:35:00] Colorado Springs. Unfortunately, there isn't much information about his trial, but we do know that he was found guilty. In June of 1976, prosecutors made the decision to drop the charges against Michael for the shooting of Ricky Lewis outside Bell's Nightingale Club.

They said there were evidentiary issues and conflicting accounts of the events. First, a key statement made by Michael was suppressed by the court and couldn't be used at trial. And then there was conflicting evidence as to who actually shot. Ricky Witnesses said it was Michael, but the ballistics report seemed to point to Mitchell Martin as the gunman.

The evidence just wasn't strong enough to prove who pulled the trigger, so the charges were dropped, which makes me crazy 'cause we know it's this three guys. One of you did it. On all of these. So I understand the law of it, but my gosh, it's so frustrating. And for his family, because that's not fair. You know, they're getting, no, they're charging some of these guys with multiple murders, you know, like you said, just based on the fact [00:36:00] that they were there, but now they're like, in this case, no one's getting charged.

Like that makes. That's tough, you know, to have to like move along, move along, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm, I'm sure that was very upsetting. On January 4th, 1977, Michael pleaded guilty to the murder of his former roommate, Winslow Watson ii. He said the motive was. A loaf of bread that Winslow had stolen from a neighbor.

The neighbor complained to Michael and Michael told them not to worry about it, and he'd take care of it. Days later, Michael Winslow were sitting by the road drinking wine when Michael handed Winslow a gun and showed it off to him. Winslow admired the weapon and then handed it back to Michael. At this point, Michael reportedly said, quote, that's not how you handle it.

This is how you handle it. And then he pointed the gun at Winslow and pulled the trigger. Terrifying. Yeah, Michael was sentenced to life in prison for that murder. After their convictions. Both Freddie and Michael filed appeal after appeal, but none of them were successful. Then in October of [00:37:00] 1978, things changed a lot That year, the Colorado Supreme Court overturned the state's death penalty, which meant that all existing death sentences, including Freddie and Michael's were automatically commuted to life in prison.

However, at the time, a life sentence in Colorado didn't mean what most people assumed it meant, which is life in prison, right? Instead, it actually meant you would be eligible for parole in 10 years. So by the mid 1990s, Freddie and Michael were eligible to walk free. Unreal. Michael first became eligible for parole in 1996, and he has thankfully been denied every time since then.

While in prison, he reportedly made efforts to rehabilitate and earned two associate's degrees and started working towards a bachelor's degree. But despite these efforts, the parole board denied his parole again in 2010 and he remains behind bars. Freddy became eligible for parole in October of 2006, but he's also been denied at every hearing.

Freddy has claimed that at the time of [00:38:00] these horrific murders, he was just a scared teenager who got caught up in the wrong crowd and went along with everything because he feared for his own life. But nobody was really buying that. And in fact, even retired police officers have continued to show up to Freddy's parole hearings to make sure that he never walks free.

I do love that. Me too. At first, Kelsey Grammar said it was really just crushing and just impossible to accept that Freddie might one day be released from prison, but someone from the parole board told him something that kind of. Changed his perspective a little bit, um, or at least helped him understand.

But they said it's called the criminal justice system, not the victim's justice system. They were just saying like, these criminals get to go on with this forever. They can keep making these appeals. They can keep fighting the system. Right. They can keep fighting for their own freedom. And unfortunately that means the victim's families have to go along for the ride.

And Kelsey said it did help him understand, you know, what he was up against. Exactly. Um, but of course that doesn't make things any [00:39:00] easier, and I do think that is. Honestly, such a profound statement to say like it's called the criminal justice system, not the victim's justice system. Yeah. And we see that nonstop in cases where it's like, did the victim get any justice?

Or you know, like, is it, is it, are we still kind of like trying to figure out how to get criminals a lighter sentence? Like it is kind of one of those things you're like, yeah, well it's amazing, like how many, and I understand the reasons and all that, but how you can be convicted of something and you can have, uh.

All these steps to, uh, for parole, for, you know, trying to get your case thrown out. All this stuff that goes on and on and on. And so these poor victims' families have to, are showing up at each thing. 'cause they're like, we have to be there because there is a chance that the judge would, you know, not saying that the judge would do something.

Bad, but like being there helps show them like, we still care about this person. Right. And beyond, not okay with this. Right. And beyond just show having to show up or feeling like you have to show up to these things, right. It's the anticipation of these [00:40:00] hearings and the dread of them and like not knowing what's gonna happen and like living with that constantly all the time.

Just, yeah. Has to be, it has to just eat away. I just, it makes me, it makes my heart grow really to all the families of the victims and these stories. Yeah, absolutely. So today, only one of Karen's killers is still alive. Michael Corbett died of kidney failure in 2019. He actually never got out of prison.

Freddie Glenn is still alive and serving his sentence with his parole hearing being in 2027. Kelsey GRA has said that when the time comes. Be there just like he's been for all the other hearings for years. He said he'll keep fighting to keep his sister's killer behind bars for as long as he lives.

Kelsey faced further tragedy in 1980 when his paternal half-brothers, Billy and Steven, these guys were twins, were killed in a suspected shark attack. While scuba diving in the Virgin Islands, Steven's body was found, washed up on a beach, and Billy was never found. Throughout the loss, Kelsey's managed to keep [00:41:00] moving forward and in an interview with Variety, he said, quote, every one of us is going to experience some terrible loss.

I just got a big dose. I think you come to look at it as part of life. Kelsey also says that he believes his sister's killer. Freddy does feel remorse, but that doesn't entitle him to freedom. I like that, like you can feel remorse, but it doesn't mean you should be out on May 6th, 2025. Kelsey released a book titled Karen, a Brother Remembers.

In it, he tells a story of his sister, not just the horrific way she died, but also about the vibrant, loving, and creative person that she was. The book includes graphic details from police reports regarding Karen's final moments, which Kelsey actually debated whether to put in or not, but he said he feels there is something truly beneficial in knowing the truth.

If anything, it's ammunition to help keep Freddie behind bars. Kelsey said that while he can forgive Freddie, he's not gonna let him get out of paying for what he did. Kelsey recently said, quote, I spent a long time on her death and very little on her [00:42:00] life, and that's what I hope people will take. Spend time on the life you lost.

Spend time on the life you shared rather than the day you lost it. Uh, Mandy, before we were recording this, you wrote me and were like. Have you heard how terrible this story is? And I didn't know of Kelsey Grammer's sister being murdered. I had no idea. It was part of this crazy killing spree that so many people were killed for literally nothing.

Literally a 50 cents. Literally just people who wanted to kill. And yes, it sucks that they were young and they did all these things. That is terrifying. All of these situations were terrifying 'cause it could happen to anyone. Anyone and completely innocent people. And, and a lot of 'em didn't even make sense.

And they say that robbery was the motive, but it's like you were saying earlier, it seems more like you were intentionally just looking to murder people because Right. And in some cases, you know, the victims still had the money. In their hands. Right. And they didn't, the, these guys didn't even take the money.

So it's like, right. You, you didn't want the [00:43:00] money because you didn't even take their money. You just killed them. Like, for no reason. Yeah. I don't, I just will never understand people who do this. And then it always, um, also, I feel like it is extra terrifying to think about like two or three people like working together to do this.

And like, nobody has the thought that like, hey, this is like. I like insane. I'm not gonna be a part of this. Like three of you agreed to do this right and continued to do it. It wasn't like one night that you couldn't get away, you just continued to show up week after week just to keep doing this. And like the thing that really upset me was in the and Karen's story, when the three guys were.

Assaulting her and the two were like, we're not gonna kill her. He's gonna have to kill her. But then all of a sudden they're like, okay, I guess, you know, she does have to die. She does have to die. Just, oh my gosh, the whole thing is so sick and makes me so mad. But I'm, I do wanna read that book. I'd be interested to read it 'cause, um.

I, I, I mean this story is, [00:44:00] man, it's awful. So before we get outta here, we did have one little fun and exciting thing that we wanted to share, and that is that we are celebrating eight years of moms and mysteries, which, oh my gosh, Melissa, eight years. I know and I keep thinking seven, like for some reason I must have just skipped seven altogether.

'cause I'm like, no, it's actually eight. That's crazy. It reminds me of, um, like my mom, every time I talk to her, or every time it's my birthday. Mm-hmm. And she's like, how old are you? 33. I'm like, mom, I haven't been 33 for like a very long time now. But yeah, we've lost. Track of, uh, of all the years. But yeah, we're celebrating eight years of moms and mysteries.

And of course we just wanna say thank you to everybody who listens for your support. We absolutely could not do the show without listeners, and we would not be here without you. No. So, to show our appreciation, we wanna give away six months of free Patreon access. Which is something we have never done before and I am very excited that we are able to do that.

So we're gonna, uh, give away six months free Patreon [00:45:00] access to eight lucky listeners. And Melissa, tell us how you can enter. Absolutely. So this episode that we are sharing today, July 15th, you can share this episode on your social media. So Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, wherever you are hanging out, make sure you tag us.

I'll have it all in our show notes. So if you're on TikTok, what our name is, 'cause it's a little different on everything. I don't like it. You don't like it? None of us like it. Um, but you can use the hashtag, hashtag mom's a mystery so we can actually find your post. Um, but the big thing is if you are on a private account, we can't see it, so we can't really include your post.

Um, I know on Facebook, I think you can make some posts public, so if you do that, you can change the settings for that. That would be great. And we will choose our winners next Tuesday, July 22nd, and thank you again for. Eight years. It's crazy. And we're, we're excited to keep, keep doing at least a few more.

At least we have to do at least two more years because if we don't make it to 10, I mean, I don't know what will happen, but [00:46:00] it will just feel, what's the point? Complete the point. Yeah. What's the point? What's the point? All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening today and every single week. We will be back next week.

Same time, same place. New story. Have a great week. Bye.