The Dark Side of Sean (P Diddy) Combs: Unpacking the Sex Trafficking Lawsuits and Federal Raids on a Hip-Hop Empire

In this episode, we dive into the staggering number of lawsuits and the escalating public scrutiny surrounding music mogul Sean "Diddy" Combs. What started as an undercurrent of rumors has exploded into a full-scale federal investigation. And we have Ellyn Marsh from I Think Not! Podcast to break it all down for us!

We begin with the lawsuit filed by Cassie Ventura in November 2023, which alleged sexual assault, rape, and forced drug use. The very fast, out-of-court settlement the day after the filing was considered a major red flag that brought the issue to public attention.

Next, we break down the bombshell Rodney Jones lawsuit from February 2024. Jones, a producer and music executive, alleged sexual assault and being forced to associate with sex workers in a hundred-page-long filing that named many other individuals. This was followed by a lawsuit from Liza Horne, a former private chef, who made similar allegations of being forced to take drugs and be with sex workers.

We also discuss the shocking Homeland Security raids that took place on Diddy's properties in Miami and Los Angeles in March 2024. These raids brought the investigation to a new, dramatic level in the public eye. Finally, we examine the significance of the recently leaked video, which further intensified the overwhelming scrutiny on the longtime music industry figure.

Check-out bonus episodes up on Spotify and Apple podcast now!

Get new episodes a day early and ad free, plus chat episodes at ⁠Patreon.com/momsandmysteriespodcast⁠ 

Check-out ⁠Moms and Mysteries⁠ to find links to our tiktok, youtube, twitter, instagram and more. 

TRANSCRIPT:

[00:00:00] Hey guys, and welcome to the Moms and Mysteries podcast, a True crime podcast featuring myself, Mandy, and my dear friend Melissa. Hi, Melissa. Hi, Mandy. How are you? I am doing well this week. How are you? I'm good. I say we cut the crap because we have have, let's skip. We have an incredibly smart, funny, entertaining, lovely, don't know why she's here, guest today.

Personality. Yes. More personality than we could ever put in our podcast. We have the lovely Ellen Marsh from, I think not podcast. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited. I, I, uh, I was bouncing off the walls. I just picked up my daughter from school. I was like, I gotta get home to talk about Diddy, which maybe is a kind of a mom fail, but here we are.

Fail when, you know, we, we take it all. Um, yeah. Well, I think in the next few weeks [00:01:00] everyone's going to be talking more and more about Diddy and we heard via our quasi manager, your producer, quasi angel from the heavens. Yes, Harris. We all communative as a community. We adore her and she does so much. She said, you are the go-to expert on Diddy.

Is that a compliment? So I'm actually, I'm just gonna correct you and I'm gonna say, oh, less of an expert and more of an A DHD hyper fixation. Perfect. Love it. Love it. You know, it's one of those things where I can't stop and it's four o'clock in the morning and all of a sudden I'm looking at his baby pictures.

Sure. So you just decide if that's really cool or super creepy. But don't decide in the reviews. This is amazing. We just wanna hear it. We care. We wanna know about Diddy's, uh, baby pictures, which I have seen already. I know. Started of court. Pictures, which [00:02:00] if you want to lose some, you know, self-esteem, ask for your court rendering.

I mean, the minute that woman made Luigi Angi look bad. Yes. I was like, you can think what you want about the man. But he does not look like that. No, no. He looks like he just stepped out of a freaking runway every time he's in court. Who? What kind of sorcery is that? No, but did you see that? Did he has gray hair?

Yes, he has gray hair and something going on with his mouth when he turns and his neck and everything. But I was like, oh, right. You don't have your L'Oreal touch-ups in prison, do you? My guy? No, I, I think he's missing those for sure. Alright, so for anyone who might be confused today, we are talking about.

Diddy, which some of our listeners might be surprised to hear us talking about Diddy, because I mean, I feel like we don't usually touch on a lot of hot, uh, current topics, but this is one that everybody, of course is talking about. And [00:03:00] if, uh, you've listened to our show for a while, you guys know that I love a good, uh, conspiracy theory.

There's a few conspiracy theories with Diddy. We probably won't touch on too much of those, um, today, but we might get into them later. So Melissa, I don't know if, I don't remember if you mentioned this before, but we are going to be talking about Diddy maybe as we move forward. He's about to go to trial and that's why we've brought you all here today, uh, because maybe not everyone knows all the details about what kind of got us to this point.

So as Melissa said, we brought on an expert slash it's still an expert expert. You can say all that. You're an expert. Yes. Uh, to kind of help us break this down and just bring us up to speed on where we are with the Diddy case, how we got here, where it started, and just kind of. Get us, get us off to the races, speed, really with this.

Yeah. And then, uh, this will serve as kind of a, a beginner's intro Okay. To Diddy. And, uh, we will be getting into the case even deeper and more as the trial kind of unfolds over the summer. So, Ellen, thank you [00:04:00] again so much for being here. We're so excited to have your commentary on this, as Melissa said.

You are the experts. Oh gosh. We really, that's gotta be your signature now. Re expert. You're the expert. I'm sure some little talker in their basement is like shaking their fists and they're like, I'm the duty expert. True, true. Yeah. So we are actually just gonna let you take it away. Um, I know. Why don't we just start with kind of where things kind of got started, how the whole thing with Diddy even came to light.

I do believe it was in November of 2023 when his ex-girlfriend, Cassie, filed a civil lawsuit against him. Is, am I correct in that? I have November, 2023. Okay. But I'll admit that I just did a very quick overview of this. So I'm, it could be the wrong date, so if I'm wrong, no, I still call the pandemic last year, of course.

So I totally trust you. I'm so bad with that kind of thing. Yeah, so I got into this because I did a [00:05:00] podcast called Robia and Ellen solved the case and love. We would choose a case with a guest and time after time I would, we had a, sorry, we had a list of cases for people and I kept saying, I want someone to choose the death of Whitney Houston.

The death of Whitney Houston never sat right with me. The facts didn't line up. I just, I had a gut feeling and so then I had this idea. I said, you know what, this is not an episode. This is a live show. So actually Robia and I toured with our Whitney Houston show, and I, you know, when I research, I am a little bit extra in life.

I probably did, but. I don't know, 500 hours of research. And as I kept digging, there was a correlation to Diddy, and I'll kind of get into that. And so then this, the story of Whitney Houston. We kind of took this sidebar into the world of Diddy [00:06:00] and Clive Davis and Whitney Houston. And then I just kind of kept going because it's just one of those cases, like, you know when you find a case and you're just like, I actually can't get enough of it.

Yeah. And I think that it's really interesting that you said that you guys don't cover a lot of, you know, um. Things that are happening right now, which, which I know, but I actually think this is such an important and topical case to be talking about because it kind of mirrors and amplifies everything that has been coming to light in terms of corruption, how we don't listen to women, how power and greed and money.

So I actually think that the parts of this case really kind of umbrella everything we talk about in true crime. So I actually think it's really brilliant that you guys are talking about it and it is so layered. Remember those like little. Like diagram, [00:07:00] like, like where you start with something and then you take all the little offshoots, right?

Yeah, that's about the size of my driveway at this point. Like I'm out of red yarn. If I may, I mean, I'm happy to jump in, but where do you guys stand on the case? Your understanding of the case, your opinions, just so I can kind of see where you guys are at. I'm asking you questions on your podcast. No, no, this is great.

We need that. Um, somebody has to be a leader here, so please. I would say once we started seeing all the feds coming around mm-hmm. When they were, you know, in all of their Yeah, the feds, uh, we saw them going to his house and you think, well, there has to be, you know, this is a high profile guy. They're not going there just to, you know, shoot the crap or whatever.

Um, so I knew something was wrong. I. Okay. Aubrey O Day has always said that something is wrong with him. That he's an evil, evil man and she is right about a [00:08:00] lot of things. And so to me, I just, I always heard her voice. So once this started coming out, I was like, they're going to find something. Mm-hmm. Um, and of course the Cassie video, no one really believed it until the video came out.

Wouldn't believe her words, but we saw the horrific video and now people believe it. So, kind of what you were saying before about believing victims. Um, so that's kind of where I am. I know a lot of pop culture, so. I'm interested in the J-Lo of it all. Mm-hmm. Is that why Ben left at the end? And is she gonna be called in for anything?

I don't know. That's where my conspiracy theories go. Mandy. Um, I'm a little bit less pop culturey than Melissa is, and I don't say that, uh, offensively at all. I just. It's just not one of my hobbies. I wi, I honestly wish I was more invested, I feel like sometimes in the current events of pop culture.

Mm-hmm. So that I could at least keep up with Melissa and her references of which she makes many that go way over my head because I dunno why, I have no clue what she's talking about. Um, but I guess for me, really, [00:09:00] I don't have a ton of knowledge on the details of the Diddy case. I do sort of know, you know, what's going on, but I feel like mostly the context is that for several years we had.

A lot of high profile people being exposed for really terrible behavior and just absolutely shocking things that were coming to light and were being in the news and being on social media. And so it was kind of one of those things when you heard the first little bit that Diddy might be involved in some type of scandal violence against women, you know, any kind of trafficking type thing that he could be involved with those circles, I guess it was kind of like, okay, well I guess Diddy too, you know?

Mm-hmm. I guess we got him too because Added the list. Yeah. It was just at a time when it was like one after another, after another, um, you know, names coming up, and so, and then I did see the Cassie video, of course, along with everybody else, and so I was like, wow, they actually have visual evidence and proof of this one.

So I of course, immediately became. Interested in how the case was going to play out because as we know with high profile cases, a lot of things get swept under the rug or [00:10:00] they just don't see the light of day at all. So, um, I am very interested in seeing kind of how things will play out with this case.

But as far as knowing a ton of details, I don't really have a ton of knowledge. Great. Well, this will be your longest podcast you guys have ever put up. I'm kidding. You know, I was just thinking two things, uh, that, that you said, uh, Melissa, number one. You hit the nail on the head. And when you said earlier, Mandy, you know, the reason I was tripped up with those dates was because you're right, Cassie came out with her allegations.

Mm-hmm. In 2023 and then Diddy's home was rated by the FBI March, 2024, and it wasn't until May of 2024. That's why I was thinking of that. Right. That date. That's when we saw the video. Wow. And so we didn't believe her, or, I mean, I did. Yeah. You know, we as a society didn't believe her [00:11:00] until six months later mm-hmm.

Until we actually saw it with our own eyes. Which is to your point, infuriating. And again, to your point, Melissa, which Aub Brio Day has been screaming Yeah. From the rooftops, you know, I mean, really in fear of her life. Oh, yeah. And it's, it's so interesting because the reason, and this is my opinion, the reason Diddy is in court today, or, I mean, they were dismissed today, but the reason he is in court is because of Cassie.

A hundred percent. 'cause Cassie was the one who came forward. She then paved the way for Dawn Richard, who was also in making the band. And for, for those of you who dunno, Cassie Ventura was on Diddy's show Making the band, which is probably the first time I, you know, I watched the show and that was probably the first time I was like, Ew, who is this horrible man?

Because it was an MTV reality [00:12:00] show where people would audition to make a band. And then it was the process of him making the band. And again, I'm so bad with dates. I wanna say it was like 15, 16, maybe even more. No, it has to be more. 'cause my, my daughter's almost 16. We were a little more okay with people being mean.

I mean, you think back, oh yeah. To, you know, the first season of American Idol when Simon Cowell was so mean and we left, that wouldn't fly today. Mm-hmm. That was sort of the vibe with Diddy. So that's really where it began. But I do want everyone to very, you know, very much understand. I believe we are only where we are because of the bravery of Cassie Ventura.

But originally it wasn't enough because, and you know, sometimes I get, you know, an odd men in my DM or whatever saying that I'm, you know, such a crazy feminist. However, I really think [00:13:00] it's hard to not acknowledge that the system is made to discredit women because. Women always will be, you know, slut shamed or figure out another way, or, you know, they're not a perfect victim.

Yeah. Or maybe they're a sex worker or a woman of color or whatever it is, but it's only when it's in 4K mm-hmm. In front of you that people have to say, shoot, I think we need to do something about this. You know? Yeah, yeah. Like, this isn't going away now. This is a thing. Right. Yeah. But it isn't until then that it was seen.

Mm-hmm. Uh, so lemme give you like a, a brief history of, um, you know, Diddy, I, I, he grew up in a really horrible household. I think his dad was actually murdered when he was like two or three. Some, you know, he was like a toddler years old and he grew up in not a great home. Uh, he grew up [00:14:00] in Harlem and then he went to Howard University.

He actually dropped out of Howard to start his, you know, music mogul business. So I'm gonna take it back to where I actually started my research of Whitney Houston, and that was when Diddy went to go join. Uptown Records. So Uptown Records was started in 1986 by a man named Andre Harrell and they call them the Uptown five because the company started with five people.

And this I'm actually gonna circle back to, so it's actually important, it was started by Andre Harrell and his assistant who was the first person hired was Kim Porter. Some of you might recognize that name. So I'm gonna do a little fast forward. Kim Porter would later go on to have four children with Diddy.

So just keep that in the back of your mind. The other three members were Heavy D of Heavy D and the boys as one of the recording artists. Al be sure who [00:15:00] was married to Kim Porter for a year and they had a child. Okay, I see again, I need a, I need my, I have a tree. I need a My red yarn in the back. This is incredible though.

I'm, I'm, my mind is, yes. Keep going. So, and then a 19-year-old Sean Combs was an intern, oh gosh. At Uptown Records and, uh, he started in, I believe it was 1990. He dropped out, he dropped out of Howard and he was just like, this is what I wanna do, this is what I wanna be. So he was with the Uptown five and honestly, him hitting the headlines in a really negative way started in 1991.

Do you guys know about the City College celebrity basketball game disaster? No. Okay. No. You know, he was a, Diddy was a hustler. I'll never take that away from him. Diddy was a hustler. He was a worker, he was a [00:16:00] fighter, he was a scrapper. You know, if he wasn't an absolute gargoyle on fire, garbage can of a person, you know.

So in 1991 he was interning at Uptown Records and he went to Heavy D and said, Hey, let's put on this celebrity basketball game at City College in New York. And they had like 50 quote celebrities, like the biggest celebrities were like Boys to Men, was performing run, DMC was performing, heavy D was performing.

So that gym holds upwards of 2,700. It's like 2,700 and change. 5,000 people showed up to the gym and essentially. You know, without getting in the weeds on this, there was a stampede and nine people died. Oh. Like one of the, like what happened at that other concert? Like a [00:17:00] crowd Travis died. Oh my gosh.

Like they had had shut the doors. People were getting pushed in and nine people lost their lives. 29 people were injured. I did not know about that. And that was in 1991. And it was, it was, you know, all over the news and everything. And, uh, but here's the thing. So the report actually cited. Sean, you know, at the time his name was Sean, as you know, the who irresponsible essentially.

Oh wow. For the stampede. However, no criminal charges were ever filed. There begins the system of the next 30 years because in the report he was named as one of the people responsible and then there were subsequent civil charges. The families of the victims, rightfully so. And a court found heavy D and [00:18:00] Sean Combs liable for half of the expenses and the payout was something like $600,000.

Okay. So the point of that is he was off to the races in terms of negative pressed and questionable behavior before he was even Diddy. Wow. So. I'm gonna fast forward a little bit. So he's working at Uptown Records with the Uptown five, and he was a hothead and he had an ego, and he would even say that there, you know, he kind of was making a name for himself and kind of standing up to Andre Harrell and Andre Harrell was like, I think I'm holding you back.

Why don't you go do your thing? Right. He was ostensibly fired from Uptown Records. That's one way to get rid of him. Yeah. You're just too good, right? That's what, yeah. Yeah. He was fired in in [00:19:00] 1993. By this time. Diddy had created a relationship with Clive Davis. Clive Davis is who is responsible for discovering Whitney, uh, Alicia Keys.

You know, he is, you know, big time ATA Records. And they had formed a relationship. 'cause Clive Davis was like, Hey, I'm this old Jewish guy from New York. Mm-hmm. Making you know, music with Whitney Houston. What's this hip hop and rap thing kind of world in a sidebar, allegedly. Mm-hmm. Clive and Diddy were to have said to have a sexual relationship.

Oh, I didn't know that. Sidebar. Allegedly. Allegedly. Take that as you will. It kind of comes there. There's so much evidence. Like Diddy randomly went to Bobby Brown and Whitney Houston's wedding. They didn't even know each other. It's a thing. Yeah. Okay. Huh. So if you were to Google Bad Boy [00:20:00] Records, you guys know what Bad Boy Records is?

Mm-hmm. Everywhere you look, it will say, Diddy started, founded, or, you know, whatever. Yeah. Bad boy records. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Where is a kid who's 22 years old, who's been interning, gonna have enough money to start a record label. What most people don't know is Clive Davis gave him Bad Boy records. That is not a well dispersed fact.

He was like, oh wow. Here, you know, some people get like, you know, candles or you know something, and he's like, who wants a record label? Yeah, that sounds like something you just skipped to some 22-year-old. Right? Right. Exactly. Exactly. And so the reason he was able to go out on his own is he took Biggie with him.

Biggie was at Uptown, and so he went over [00:21:00] to Bad Boy and he was like, let's do this thing. There went the. Best friendship, which yeah, talk about that later. Uh, and, and that's how he started, uh, bad Boy Records essentially is he was gifted it by Clive Davis after he was fired from Andre Harrell. Now again, 1996, he had threatened a photographer with a gun and he was, uh, cited for criminal mischief served no time, of course, it's, you know, starting the pattern.

And then in 1997, biggie was killed in LA and that's when he started coming out with the Puff Daddy and he did the, I'll Be Missing You. And he sort of stepped into the limelight of being a rapper, which totally my opinion, the worst rapper of all time. Yeah. Yeah. I never got that. I was like, I get the [00:22:00] clothes, I guess, and some of the other stuff.

But wrapping, no, I mean. His biggest hit is a sampled song about Biggie. Right, right. No creativity. That was his, that's his biggest song, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so, and then he just kind of started to get bigger and bigger as a performer because he won Grammys in 98. And then, okay, so going along the line of his criminal past, yeah.

In 99, he was charged with attacking another record executive over a music video and like assaulting him and guess what his, uh, you know, ti his time was, or guess what he was sentenced to for assault, assault. I'm gonna say not long. I'm gonna say 10 days. Oh, I'm gonna say, uh, community service where he had to volunteer at his own [00:23:00] record label.

And that's like how they got away with it. I like that much better. He was sentenced to anger management courses. Oh, that one? Yeah. I'm sure it worked. Yeah. So the, the, you know, the pattern continues and then comes the, the biggest thing that sort of catapulted him was the shooting, uh, in 1999 with J-Lo, where three people were wounded.

Everyone said that he had the gun. J-Lo had the gun. He was, he offered. One of, um, he offered his driver $50,000 to take the fall. That was very, very public. He was charged with that. And then one of the people that he was mentoring, uh, Jamal Shane Borrows, he was convicted of the shooting and he serves nine years in prison.

Again, [00:24:00] nothing on Sean Diddy Combs. Wow. And he just keeps getting bigger, making the band as in, uh, 2002, he performs at the Super Bowl. I mean, he, he was on Broadway. You guys. That has to be personally offensive to you. He was on for Broadway and so his star keeps rising. So every time his name is coming up in a negative way, he sometimes get up.

Do you know people like that where you're just like, where is your fricking karma? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Alright. Okay. I'm gonna do a little bit more, a little bit more of this timeline. Okay. And so in, in 2008, he was charged with punching a guy at an Oscar party and settled, you know, quietly settled. Then he was arrested, uh, for a fight that broke out at like his son's football game.

Yeah, that feels, um, [00:25:00] that was in 2000. I mean, that feels right, but Yeah. What do you think happened to those charges? Um, I assume that they went away. Mm. They just dropped, disappeared. Yeah. Magically dropped, assaulted someone at A-U-C-L-A football game. Okay. I remember this. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that.

Mm-hmm. Okay. I'll get into Kim Porter and all that. I just kind of wanted to, you know, show that this is a pattern and then all the DB stuff comes out in 2023, but he is no stranger to the court system. Police getting arrested, getting charged what he is, what is foreign to Diddy is actually being charged and facing the ramifications.

But have you guys done or heard anything about his legal team? Okay, so here's Tell me, 'cause this is like mm-hmm. This [00:26:00] is all alleged because I know that I'm messing this up. Isn't someone in his legal team married to someone in Luigi's? Yes. Okay. Okay. Yes, you are so right. Yeah. I'm gonna mispronounce his name, Agne.

Follow Mark Agni Aglo. Yes. He and his wife Karen is defending Luigi. Got it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I thought I heard that. Okay. You all, this defense team. When I read about it, I like, I actually got like hot in my face. Oh wow. Because these are some of the best. Mm-hmm. Most smartest. Yeah. Just genius shark. They're all good at different things.

Mark Geragos is, he's not a lawyer, he's the legal consultant, but his daughter, Kenny Geragos, who is amazing, is really on his, she is incredible. [00:27:00] She is going to be huge, huge, huge. And they have, uh, Alexandra Shapiro. They have this guy named Brian Steele. He was just added to the case, I wanna say, not even a month ago.

And the weirdest thing about this man, Brian Steele, who has a tremendous record as well, is this man leads such a clean lifestyle. He doesn't drink, he doesn't smoke. He eats brown rice and vegetables every day. What a freak. Freak. The man won't even curse. Even if he's reading a transcript and, and it says a curse word, he won't say it in court.

Oh, wow. And he's defending Diddy. That's okay. But didn't somebody recently just, I, I don't wanna go too far ahead, but didn't somebody on his legal team literally say, I cannot, is that him or is that someone else? No. Mm-hmm. Okay. No, someone, and you can get to it whenever. I just remember that. Yeah. No, like recused themself.

Yeah. Okay. No, totally. But his legal team, it was giving me like OJ [00:28:00] vibes. Oof. Yeah. When you go down and you look at these people and they, and they're all kind of good at a different thing. Like Xavier Donaldson, he, he is this really smooth talk. He's good. So. I gotta say it's, it's pretty scary. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm not gonna lie.

So I guess, you know, from there, you know, he, I, I think that, you know, the point I'm pointing out that whole timeline is that what makes someone like Sean Diddy combs evade public consequences for so long? We're talking 30 years. Yeah. But then I was thinking this morning, you know, r Kelly faced public allegations for, I don't know, 20 years mm-hmm.

Before he was actually convicted in 2021. Right. Harvey [00:29:00] Weinstein. Mm-hmm. Those rumors were circulating for decades, and he, they were silenced by NDAs. Dozens of women came forward, and so I don't think for rich, powerful, scary men mm-hmm. This is. An anomaly. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's, it's unreal though. I mean, it really is.

When you're looking at all the things he has done, he fully feels like, I mean, who wouldn't that you can get away with anything. I mean, if you have enough money, it's always happened. Yeah. Enough actions. Mm-hmm. Well, also because he has Right, exactly. You know, money and power. And I do, you know, it's like I said at the beginning, you know, the only thing, the only reason we're here is because of Cassie.

Real quickly to go over the charges. Okay. He has currently, now this has nothing to do with Tony Busby's civil cases, which I don't know, there's what, 10,042 by now. That is, that is total civil [00:30:00] stuff. This is just FBI charges. As I was picking up my daughter from school today, she was trying to ask me questions.

I was like, I, I, I can't start in the middle. And she was trying to say why it wasn't televised. 'cause all of us wanna see pictures, we want, of course, we're not gonna see anything. And I was trying to say, because it's federal court, and I was trying to say the difference, and I was saying, you know, well, the FBI, they don't go until they have their stuff.

Mm-hmm. They have been looking into Diddy for a long, long time. So that gives me hope, but. These are just the charges that they have right now. He has one count of racketeering, conspiracy, two counts of sex trafficking by coercion and, uh, two counts of transportation to engage in sex work and, uh, kidnapping.

But, you know, just casual stuff. And the [00:31:00] indictment clearly says that he coerced, abused, drugged women for years and silenced victims through blackmail violence, through physical beatings, arson. And something that I hope will get discussed more is nobody does this alone. Yeah. You know, there's a godfather.

There's a concierge and then there's, you know, all the other guys blow. Mm-hmm. So there is a network of associates, employees, workers that not only aided him and helped him do this, but they turned a blind eye. That's kind of where the, you know, the conspiracy kind of ties into it, is how deep does the corruption go?

How many people are involved, and who is truly at the very, very top of all this. Because like you said, this is not a one person job. Mm-hmm. This isn't something that one [00:32:00] person gets involved in on. They don't wake up one day and have the connections to even get involved in something this, on a scale, this size.

And so it does, it does make mm-hmm. You wonder, you know, how deep does it go? Where does it end? And who's at the very top? Well, okay. So speaking of the sort of conspiracy of it all, it is, it's sort of hard for Muggles like us to even wrap our head around it. Yeah. You know, I hear, I'm not a big conspiracy theory person.

I'm kind of cut and dry, but then when you really dive into it, how many times can you see the same pattern and be like, oh no, wait, there's something here. You trust doctors. You trust police officers. Yeah. And then you see enough of it and you're like, oh no, there's bad guys everywhere. Mm-hmm. Totally. So in that conspiracy, without getting too far in the weeds, I told you about the uptown five today.

As it stands, there is only. Two [00:33:00] remaining members of the Uptown five, however it's sort of one and a half. So let me just go into that. So the, you know, the conspiracy, so you know, it was Andre Kim, heavy D Al and Diddy. Andre Harrell died in 2020. He was in the process of writing a tell all book. Hmm. And he died from heart failure coupled with, coupled with flu-like symptoms.

Heavy D died in 2011 while he was in the middle of writing a tell all book. Oh my gosh. And he also died of heart failure. Mm-hmm. Uh, Kim Porter died November 15th, 2018 of flu-like Symptoms and was then ruled pneumonia while she was, say it with me. Writing a tell. Writing a tell. I [00:34:00] was like heart condition.

I dunno. Yeah. I can't be put on the spot. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Wow. And then there's Al, Al Becher who remember was married to Kim Porter. Right. They share a son Quincy. In 2002, Al was recording or, or in the studio or something and he collapsed and he was rushed to the hospital with miscellaneous and undetermined flu-like symptoms.

He was in a coma Oh my gosh. For two months. And it is by some miracle that Al be Sure is still here. That's why I say there's only one and a half remaining members of the uptown five. Because he was very near death. Right. And he was producing a tell all documentary. Oh my gosh. So, yeah, it doesn't feel like a conspiracy [00:35:00] like once, twice, three, three and a half times.

This feels like, you know, a thing. And, you know, the, the, the whole connection, you know, with Whitney now, Whitney's daughter, Bobby mm-hmm. Was also in this weird triangle, but just as a sidebar, she also died from pneumonia. Pneumonia. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, yeah. So it is. Really crazy. I mean, call it a coincidence that everyone was telling their stories and then they died.

Right. There was also someone connected to Kim that had died in 2000. She was in Italy with her partner, uh, Shaki Stewart, who was an executive, I can't remember his company, but he was also in the music, um, industry. And in [00:36:00] 2000 they were all in la at la uh, sorry. They were in Italy at La Reeds wedding. And after the ceremony, Diddy went to Shakir's hotel room.

'cause Shaki was with Kim Porter at the time. Right. And broke a chair over his head. Sure. And that's documented. Mm-hmm. And um, and said, I'm going to kill you and. Suspiciously Shaki Stewart died from, I'm putting in bunny ears a self-inflicted gunshot wound in 2008. Oh, right. So we've all had death and darkness in our life.

Sure. But at what point do you say is anyone who, your friends with still alive. Yeah. Right. Because then you bring Diddy, uh, sorry. Then you bring Biggie into it mm-hmm. And Tupac into it. Mm-hmm. Who, who's alive. Right. You know, just Diddy. Yeah. What are your thoughts? Am I going too fast? Am I skipping around?

Do you have questions? I feel I'm follow and [00:37:00] Yeah. No, I'm following and I'm fascinated. Yes. Perfect. Exactly like that. I'll say I'm, I hope we get into a little J-Lo because she is somebody who was a part of his life. Big time. That's how we kind of learned about her and the Selena movie, of course. Um, but that's how we kind of learned about her and they seem like they've always been on good terms, like you.

Mm-hmm. You hear them kind of talking back and forth. So to me, that old connection of them has always felt a little s. I'm not gonna say suspicious. Allegedly feels. Allegedly feels suspicious. Mm-hmm. Is that okay to say? Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it is suspicious, just given what we know about Diddy's history with other women.

So it's kind of like, yeah. Where is this close bond coming from, um, between those two? Yeah, you're absolutely right. And even Gene Diehl, who was one of Diddy's bodyguards who's been really outspoken and of course nothing is, you know, it's all his story, right? Gene deal's, stories, you know, he's very vocal.

He's all over [00:38:00] social media and he and everyone who, you know, you ask will say, J-Lo is the only person that, number one doesn't have anything bad to say about Diddy. And Diddy doesn't have anything bad to say about her. Hmm. But like, why do you think. Who knows. I mean, I think something happened that she knows during that time and he's got something on her, and so she's going to stay quiet.

That I truly do. In my heart of hearts, believe that's part of the whole breakup with Ben and J-Lo is knowing this stuff was coming down the pike and getting out before she's, you know, being called in or whatever, not knowing what, you know, he can't ruin his reputation with all of this coming out now. Um, he's got enough.

Well, remember that incident I told you back in 1999 Yes. Mm-hmm. Where the other guy took the fall. Right. With J-Lo. So I feel like [00:39:00] bad circumstances bond us. You know what, you know, you have a bad job and all of a sudden everybody that works there is best friends. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's sort of the same thing now.

None of us know for sure, and I. Don't know if she has, you know, kept her side of the street clean. Sure. She was not mentioned in any of the indictment in terms of his freak offs. Mm-hmm. But Kim Kardashian was, Ooh. And Kim Kardashian also brought women to those freak offs. So there is a world mm-hmm. Where there might be something else there.

Right. But really the, yeah, I mean, the biggest thing that brought J-Lo to the forefront was that fricking green dress. The dress. Yep. It was the first time any of us knew who she was and someone was like, she's a fly girl on in living color. And you're like, what? That was it. [00:40:00] Yeah. True. And all of a sudden she's huge.

Right. Now, let me ask you a question. How do you go from Diddy, you know, ingrained in scandal in the hip hop culture, all kinds of, you know, lawsuits, all kinds of legal speculation to Goodwill hunting Ben Affleck, not Ben Affleck that we know now. Right, right, right. Why do you think that is? I mean, I feel like it's an image thing, right, for sure.

Like you're trying to just for sure, uh, uh, fix your image, which it's also not worked the opposite now. Mm-hmm. Like that's a good friend now. Yeah. I mean, I think that J-Lo is a vault of information, but she has so much to lose. Yeah. And I don't know. If she's gonna have anything to do with this, because though this, those charges were from much later.

And from what we understand, and I [00:41:00] really do mean from like other people that have testified, he did not have a hostile or violent relationship with J-Lo. Right. That's just what people said. I kind of wanna like get your vibe on this. So we're only in jury selection right now. Right. And first of all, they can't even find, I think they had like 6,000 people.

Mm-hmm. And they can. Barely find a, how do you find someone who didn't see the Cassie video or who doesn't know what bad boy records is? It's are, are you guys finding nomads? Like Yeah. No, I think they're finding the people on Facebook that believe all the ai. Um, I was gonna say, I think it's people that are probably above a certain age that are maybe not as mm-hmm.

Social media savvy, but it has to be. No one under 60. It has to, it hasn't seen that. Yeah. It's gotta be people from an older generation mm-hmm. That maybe aren't even as maybe necessarily, they don't even have a full knowledge of who Diddy is to begin with. They don't have a background history on him at all.

[00:42:00] But yeah, you're right. It would be incredibly hard to find, uh, jurors in a case like this that's this high profile with somebody, this well known, and not just the defendant being this well known, but the other people involved are also equally as well known. So there's like a very high chance that you're gonna know someone in the case.

Yeah. I, I mean, yeah. I, I, I think it's insane. I think they should have taken it to like Norway or something. I don't know. It's, it's just, it's everywhere. Right. But, uh, so two things, two things about that. One of the witnesses is missing. Ooh. Yeah. So they're to assume that Cassie Ventura is witness what they're calling witness number one right now, the defense has said that their defense on that, oh God, I just got chills.

Look at my arm. I literally just got chills. Is that they were mutually abusive to each other. I read that today and could not believe the audacity to say that. I, again, [00:43:00] I look at my arms like I, I know. That is so chilling to me. Mm-hmm. Because, and I don't know how to really put this eloquently, so forgive me.

I'm sorry to anyone who really was emotionally disturbed by that video. Yeah. But I actually think it's really important that people watch it. Yeah. Number one. That video was hidden. Yeah. He paid for that video to be hidden. How many more videos are like that? Mm-hmm. Because money plus power, you are gonna buy silence every time.

Right. And I think that's something that we really need to take with us, is how much people's need for money is weaponized. I'm talking cops, doormen, security victims, everything. But the thing that really struck me when I heard that news, oh God. First of all, she [00:44:00] wasn't fighting back at all. She was defending herself.

And I, I, I don't know how to say that. I do, I I keep getting chills. It was almost like, you know, when we're little kids or, or I grew up in California and we had earthquake drills. And they would teach you stop, drop, and roll, and we'd all get down and we would cover our heads like it was a choreographed dance.

Mm-hmm. And I felt like that's what she was doing. A hundred percent. She knew if she went down to the ground, he would start kicking her. So she put herself in a ball. And my point for saying this isn't to upset anyone that is not a man who has not done that before. Absolutely. That is a man who expertly beat her up because he knew where to hit her.

How to hit her. And the fact that, how many [00:45:00] attorneys does he have? Seven. Eight. Eight humans. I don't care how much money they're paying you. Right. A billion dollars, I don't care. Mm-hmm. Can stand up there and look at that video and tell me. That that man has not done that before. Time and time again. How many of those videos are hidden, hidden, destroyed?

Listen, if, if you work in a hotel and you're making minimum wage and someone comes up to you and says, I'm gonna give you $50,000, right. To delete all the videos from last night, who would take that? I know. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Who wouldn't get out of their life circumstances for a life changing amount of money.

That's not a life changing amount of money for him, because he's a billionaire. Mm-hmm. $50,000 or, or whatever it is, $20,000. Yeah. You know? But again, it is a system in place where [00:46:00] he knows how to do this. People, he knows how to make it go away. Yeah. He knows how to silence people. The fact to me that it was in the hallway.

Mm-hmm. It's not in the room. It's if I leave the room and I'm arguing with my husband mm-hmm. At the hotel, my mouth is shut when I walk out, I'm not going to bring my mess into the halls. Mm-hmm. So for him to so blatantly do that outside of the room and keep going, he knew he was gonna get away with it.

He knew, you know, well this sucks, I'm gonna have to pay some people, but he didn't care. Mm-hmm. There was nothing, nothing. And I don't think I realized how strong he was. Mm-hmm. Like I didn't think he was physically a big guy. Mm-hmm. But watching that, and I also have chills now, but watching that was so upsetting because.

It, there was not, it was not a slap, it was not anything like that. It was to hurt her and to teach her, and that was all he was, you know, and to silence her really, like that was, that was the whole goal. And she knows [00:47:00] his history. She knows everything about him. She knows she could be next. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What you were saying about Cassie, like she's.

The true hero in this because she could have just kept silent and went abo uh, you know, about her life and knows all these risks. Mm-hmm. And still went ahead and did it and opened the door for everyone else. Yeah. Yeah. And I totally agree with you too, Ellen, that as terrible as it is to be, to actually see, you know, that video playing out in your face where you cannot deny that this is what happened.

Um, it's terrible. It's awful, but it's totally necessary. Like you were saying, there's so few of these types of videos that actually do mm-hmm. See the light of day. And this is like the proof that everyone says like, oh, we need proof. We need proof. This is the proof. Yep. And of course, I'm not saying that if you are someone who has trauma in your own background, no, you shouldn't traumatize yourself by watching content like this.

But if you're someone who just doesn't wanna see it because it makes you uncomfortable. I would challenge you to like, get over it a little bit and watch these things. This is real, you know, this is like, actually [00:48:00] happened to someone. And like you said, Cassie had the bravery to come out and put this out there herself.

And in some ways I feel like it is showing respect to her to watch this and to acknowledge that this is what she went through and that this is a real thing. And not just say, I don't wanna see that, that's too uncomfortable for me. You know, like this is a real thing that real people have gone through and that needs to be put out there.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. That's such a great point when someone says, oh, I don't wanna watch that. It makes me uncomfortable. Oh, does it make you uncomfortable to watch it? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Because that woman had to live it. Right. You know, and, and I, we say it all the time on, on, I think not, you know, it's heavy what we do.

It is heavy. I take it on I'm, I feel like I take on emotions. Yeah. You know, I always make fun of, I'm a big old crybaby, you know, I laugh and then I cry, but, and it's upsetting and sometimes it's a lot. And I, I think you guys would agree. Totally. But we have to tell the stories because us being uncomfortable or upset for a night that doesn't compare [00:49:00] mm-hmm.

To somebody living with abuse or trauma or somebody, you know, losing their loved one. So yeah, you need to watch the video. You need to see what actually happens and how that was covered up for years. That was an old video, by the way. That was like an 8-year-old video that someone was paid to hide. And I, I just think that y you know, and, and women don't come forward.

Right. You know, and misogyny is constantly weaponized because when women do speak out, they're harassed, they're doxed, they're threatened, they're a slu. They want something, they wanna ruin him, they want his money. And I gotta tell you both, I am, ugh. I'm terrified what they're gonna do to those women on the stand.

'cause they're going to Yeah. Uh, they're going to embarrass them. It's true though. Yeah. They're gonna look, they're gonna [00:50:00] talk to people. They're gonna look at, you know, find a picture of them in a bikini and call them a slut. What those five women are doing, what one is missing? They don't know where she is.

And that's, that's terrifying to me. They are essentially altering and changing the course of their life for justice because they will, those defense attorneys, first of all, are. Absolute pieces of garbage because no paycheck is worth defending a man who has hurt so many people. We haven't even gotten to the freak offs or anything like that, but he has hurt so many women.

You know, even if you wanna say, take everything off the table, let take everything. Take the freak offs, take the sex trafficking, take the, the alleged rape of a 13-year-old boy. Uh, take usher off the table. Take Justin Bieber off the table. Let's just talk about Cassie. Yeah. [00:51:00] Because that's the one we saw.

Mm-hmm. The fact that someone could get up there and blame her, or say that she in some way incited or participated in her own abuse. Those are the things that make me just wanna give up and bang my head against a wall. Yeah. Well, please don't do that. We need to, and other reasons, but, uh, yeah, let's, are we able to get into the freak offs of it all?

Because that's the thing, I don't understand. I don't, I, I've, I don't know if you know this about me, but Mandy does. I was not someone that was invited to any sort of a party. No one ever offered me a single drug. I've never had a cigarette because I've never been off. So I, so when I meet you in person, I don't smoke, but I'm buying a pack of cigarettes.

I'm like, Melissa, let's go. And if this cigarette, I have like crazy lung problems, my husband's like, if you smoked one, it would kill you. So I can't even do that. Um, but I'm not somebody that's ever been invited to anything. Mm-hmm. Beyond this. So I, [00:52:00] I just don't even understand a thing that was happening at these, like what was the idea of these beginning parties, but then there's an after party mm-hmm.

That we heard him talk about on Ellen and everyone else. Yeah. He was so open with this. Oh yeah. And everyone chose to just ignore it or just like, oh, that's, you know, whatever. Okay. Okay. Quick question of my own Yeah. Freak offs. Mm-hmm. Is that like something that he coined himself or is that just what we are calling it?

You know what I, no, I dunno if he coined it, but that's what everyone called it. Everyone knew, you know, the Diddy White party, you know, which happened in the Hamptons and then we've all known about that. I dunno who actually coined it, but that's what they were referred to. Okay. I mean, you all it. Listen, I wasn't a cool kid either.

I mean, I. Was a theater nerd. Do you want me to sing the soundtrack to the Who's Tommy? I can do it. I'm such a nerd. So, you know, if I was invited to a party, I definitely wasn't [00:53:00] invited to the after party. Right. So, you know, the thing about Diddy is that he was acclaimed. I mean, he's a walk, he has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

This man has Grammys and he is a, he was applauded and hailed as a black entrepreneur. You know, someone who came from Harlem and built his way up, built an empire. Yeah. And, and he did. He was, he was bold. He was a risk taker. And so his success in the entertainment industry, front facing was well earned to most people.

But. You know, the, he would have these multimillion dollar parties, these white parties and I, I can't even, I mean name a famous person. They were there, right? He was best friends with Ashton, Kushner, Ellen DeGeneres, Oprah. If [00:54:00] you were anyone, you were at these Diddy parties. The after party was where the freak offs began, and that is where allegedly people would engage in group sex.

The, you know, thousand bottles of baby oil, where he's like, oh, just like to buy in bulk. I'm like, yeah, cost. Get a Costco membership. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we have people who have come forward who were in charge of. Cleaning up the after parties, providing drugs and drinking. And what's interesting when you look at the civil lawsuits is the stories are all very similar, right?

I went in, I had a drink, then I felt funny. Then all of a sudden I am having sex with insert celebrity. Right? There were minors involved. Justin Bieber. Yeah. [00:55:00] Usher. Something very interesting about Usher. You know, usher went under the wing of Diddy at age 14. La Reed sent Usher to go live with Diddy. Yeah, I know.

It's insane. And allegedly Diddy uh, sexually assaulted usher. And then there's Justin Bieber. Usher is the one who brought Justin Bieber to Diddy. Now, I would like to say there is allegations that, uh, Sean, pity Combs experienced sexual assault. That isn't from him, that's from other people. But I do think it's important to note because.

The victim often becomes the perpetrator. Right. Which is the case with Diddy to Usher. Usher to Justin Bieber. Usher is another one that's gonna be very interesting if he's brought into this fold, because there are a lot of allegations. There are a lot. Everything I say is a legend, by the way. I mean this [00:56:00] is, you know, people have said, yeah, I'm probably gonna post something at the beginning of this.

It says, everything we said was alleged. Absolutely. So much. Yeah. Mean these are people's stories, you know, bodyguards, people who were there, but is, you know. Yeah. It is alleged that Usher was actually hospitalized due to his essay from Diddy. And it is alleged by the person who drove him to the hospital.

Hmm. You know? So it just doesn't stop. Yeah. And the saddest part, which again, hasn't been proven, was that oftentimes at these freak offs, it is said that minors were brought in. Yeah, often low income kids who wanted to be famous boys and girls. Uh, and, and that, and that should be said too. Um, the allegations of Diddy are, are men and women, and it was, uh, essentially [00:57:00] group assault.

But what they're going to say is. These are adults. Mm-hmm. Having consensual group sex. I don't kink shame, I don't shame anybody for anything they do in their privacy of their own home. As long as it's consensual. I don't care if you're, you know, hanging from your toenails or whatever, as long as everybody, please don't an adult don't do that one.

I do have to call. That seems dangerous. Slight shame. Slight shame with toenails. Right. You know, that is where the sex trafficking comes in. Yeah. The allegations, you know, racketeering is such an interesting charge 'cause racketeering is like you're doing a bunch of organized crime. Okay. I was gonna ask you, 'cause I feel like I, the last time I heard of racketeering really is white collar crimes, but like.

From the sixties, I don't feel like we hear racketeering a whole lot. So yeah, explain that. Racketeering, I is truly organized crime. Got it. It's mob bosses, it's, you know, the Gotti family it right? Basically saying you do a bunch of bad stuff and you have a system [00:58:00] in place and you have a bunch of, you know, people below you maybe doing your dirty work, maybe you're doing the dirty work, but it's organized.

There's people paying off money, you know, again, gene deal, the bodyguard. He says he would walk around with a bag full of money and just pay off whoever he needed to. NYPD security guards. And again, listen, yes, NYPD takes an oath, but you're gonna tell me that you're gonna go to an NYPD who's making $70,000 a year, and they say, here's $50,000 to TE to say you didn't see anything.

Of course that's disgusting and awful, but you have to think of. A human being. Right. And their life circumstances. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying open your mind to the possibility. But it is very easy to buy people. Oh, I'm not saying it's right. Yeah. But I'm saying it's absolutely possible.

Yeah. Well, and I would imagine if you're in that position, you're, you need cash. They know you need cash. And you take it and you think, well, the next person will do it. Like obviously [00:59:00] somebody's gonna do it. It doesn't have to be me. I really need this. But so, so I can see convincing yourself that like, I wish I could, but this is too good of a deal.

And just knowing somebody's gonna do it. Mm-hmm. And my gosh, it just keeps going and going. Yeah. And, you know, but it's, it's everything. It's the sum of the parts of how this quite possibly went on for 30 years. 'cause that is what we're talking about. And it has gone unchecked because money doesn't just buy you stuff.

Mm-hmm. Money buys you a elite team of lawyers and power allows to shape your public persona and your narrative. And then power and money also allows you to impart fear in order to silence people. So it's like a system because we have to remember [01:00:00] the system favors the well-resourced. Yeah. And that's it.

Do you guys ever listen to the podcast or watch, you know, on TikTok, diary of a CEO. I've seen, yeah. I've seen some tiktoks. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I love that podcast. Mm-hmm. And there was this divorce lawyer on there telling the story of his saddest day in court and he actually got choked up. And he was saying that, you know, his client most likely did everything this woman said.

Now I understand the idea of a defense attorney. I dated a man and his dad was a defense attorney. And one day I built up enough balls to say, how do you do it? Yeah. If you know someone is guilty. And the exact thing he said, which I've repeated on my podcast so many times, is he said to me, my job isn't to weigh in on their guilt or innocence.

My job is to ensure he gets a fair trial. Right. And that was the [01:01:00] way he sort of made peace with it in his brain. Diddy lawyers. Go scratch. I, I don't believe any of that. But you know, this, this defense lawyer, sorry, this divorce lawyer was saying the, the, you know, he's like, I'm really an expensive lawyer.

Mm-hmm. And this woman had, you know, a friend of a friend, she was a bad lawyer. She was making really stupid mistakes. We're talking even just in her verbiage of Right. You know, presenting evidence or something and he was saying, you know, God, just say this. Just say this. And he said, and I won that case 'cause he had more money.

Mm-hmm. Because I'm a better lawyer and better lawyers cost more money. Right? Yeah. And, and that, that, that's sort of why we are where we are in so many instances. And I think the more we open our eyes to. [01:02:00] W we're, I don't live like that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, I, I, I, I pay my, the guy who mows my lawn, you know, but I don't have money to buy anybody.

So I think we just, you know, need to think bigger about it. And doesn't it feel so unfair that we can't watch the trial? It's, it's truly none of our business. At the end of the day. I'm just like, of, that's not there. I know, I know. Uh, yeah. I'm very jealous of those who do. But I really do love a bad courtroom sketch.

Like Diddy is just getting Oh, it's so bad. And I love it. I love it so much. I love the, the gray. I love that his hair is mm-hmm. Turning gray. It's amazing. Uh, I think, well, lemme ask you guys a question. What do, so what do you fear. About this trial. Like, and when you think about it, not like so much the outcome, [01:03:00] because my brain always goes to the bad place.

Sure. Yeah. You know, this, this witness is missing. Right. Of course. I'm like, go check the lakes and rivers, you know? Yeah. Honestly, yeah. Yeah. It feels like a mob movie, but let's be for real. Oh, one thing I didn't say this was a woman who was willing to identify herself. Unreal. I mean, totally real in this case, but it is un you would think that just being able to do that would provide her some safety.

You know, that everybody knows that you're a part of this now. Mm-hmm. And so you can have some sense of, 'cause surely nothing would happen to you before this trial. Mm-hmm. And so that's the most brazen. He's brazen, I feel like, in, in all of this, and still has all of his minions. There's still, there's still money.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. I would say definitely just beyond, uh, you know, the worries and fears about the outcome of the trial itself. I [01:04:00] definitely think that's one of the biggest concerns you have is like, what's gonna happen to the people that are involved. The witnesses in the trial that are supposed to testify and just everybody else involved, you know, are what, what are we gonna hear about what's gonna happen throughout the course of the trial?

I am terrified for the victims. Yeah. Also, I, I said at the beginning of this, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but what if they buy a juror? I mean, yeah, that would be the easiest. Really. You just need one, Joey, my podcast partner and I, yeah. And I often say it's so hard to put yourself in the mind of somebody who is so sick or corrupt or violent.

I'm not saying I'm a perfect person by any means. Sure. But it, it's like. You would think, oh, I, I could never be bought. But people can, and people are scared. Yeah, of course. You know, if someone ever [01:05:00] threatened our children, and that's a Yeah. You know, it's, that's the thing. It's so different. If you're coming after me, you can come after me.

Mm-hmm. That would not be great. But you hear that all the time. Whenever they're starting to go after someone's family, that's, that's where they have to stop. That's where you have to look at, you know, make decisions you wouldn't normally make because your job and your love is to protect these other people.

So I fully, that's like a, that's a real fear. Mm-hmm. I think jury intimidation, uh, juries being, jurors being bought off, just. Threats. I mean, I would, I would be terrified if I was called in for this kind of a trial. Mm-hmm. Terrified. Yeah. Um, I'd say some crazy things to get out of it. I would go full Liz Lemon and 30 Rock and, you know, be Princess Leia.

I do whatever I had to do to get out of this. 'cause this is just, I, I don't wish this on anyone. Mm-hmm. Yeah. As I was saying, I was, I was driving my daughter home [01:06:00] and as we pulled in the driveway, she said, do you think he's gonna be found guilty?

And, you know. We're always told the FBI doesn't take their shot, right? Mm-hmm. Unless they know they're gonna get it, you know, we have that number in our head, the 98% success rate. Who knows if that's real? Yeah. There's probably corruption in the FBI too. It's everywhere. And you know, I have a couple of people that I refer to in law enforcement, and they've seen corruption.

They've seen corruption in coroners mm-hmm. And medical examiners, and this isn't me. Yeah. I, I'm not like, oh, I don't, I don't even have a tinfoil hat. Mm-hmm. I guess I could make one. I just, you, she asked me that question and I, I've never really been posed with that question before, because in my gut, I believe in his guilt, even if it's 20% of what they say.

[01:07:00] Mm-hmm. When more likely, it's probably like 75 or 80. Right. That's just enough for me. Yeah, you just time's up and I think he got sloppy and I think that too many people were involved in too many mouths and then that's what happens. I mean, the house does always win. You know, r Kelly, it took 20 years, but r Kelly went down, Jeffrey Epstein went down.

I, I can't personally understand how he could be found not guilty. Mm-hmm. But I know there's possibility. I know there's that possibility. And, uh, and what happens then if he's, even if he's found guilty, he still has people, he still has so many people. Mm-hmm. And they're in charge of his money or, you know, whatever, whatever he has going on.

So it just feels like this stirs up a whole different set of issues. Mm-hmm. That all need to be addressed. They all need to be, you know, fixed and everything, but it's just like [01:08:00] everyone was playing his game for so long and now that they're not, people are gonna pay. And I think that you're right. And it opens up that can of worms, because all of these.

Women in this trial are female. Yeah. There are other male victims, so I, I don't wanna, you know, take away from their stories, but we do always come back to most of our victims are women, not believing women. And I think other than outright misogyny and thinking women are dramatic and out for money and all of those things, I think that there is part of some people's brain that if we believed all the stories, we believe all of Diddy's stories, any woman's story, it forces people to act.

Mm-hmm. And then that forces you, you know, the, [01:09:00] the judicial system, the government, anyone to hold power. Powerful people accountable. And then we're all sitting here reexamining our heroes. Yeah. Whose albums was I listening to all these years? I know. Whose concerts did I go to? And then you're all of a sudden you're reconstructing your, your childhood.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, all of these rappers and musicians that we've, you know, come to love these movie stars or whatever. So I think that it's, you know, I, I think that there's a lot of fear in that and, and people aren't comfortable with empathy. Yeah. We don't, it's like, you know, people don't wanna watch the Cassie video.

They don't want those feelings stirred up. That's how women stay silent. And that's why you can't take the number of, you know, women who experience intimate partner violence or any kind of domestic violence in the home [01:10:00] or any kind of abuse. You can't take those numbers seriously. 'cause it's just a fraction.

Those are just the people that were brave enough to speak. And there's a whole bunch of women who are scared into silence and my heart breaks for them and, you know, and yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's so complicated. It's so layered and there's so much corruption and deceit and hatred and manipulation, but. Yeah.

Power man. Well, Mandy knows I'm my, uh, family member brand for city council. Got on small town. We're talking small, small town. And the corruption I've learned about with that, it's unreal. Like, like anything you think is going on probably is, and if it's happening in this little tiny, not to say inconsequential town, but in the grand scheme of even the state, the country, nobody's, it's just a blip on the radar.

Mm-hmm. So to think [01:11:00] of a trial like this with so many quote unquote important people, and you know, this big city and all this stuff, the national focus, I can't even begin to imagine the corruption from the bottom all the way to the top. Mm-hmm. It's, it's, if, if he gets convicted, I will be so thankful.

Mm-hmm. And so happy if, you know, the jury finds that, but I would not be surprised if it, if it. If it doesn't happen. Yeah. And they're just, I, I keep going back to, to the victims and the retraumatization that they're all going to face Yeah. On the stand, because I, I know you both have seen it. We need a perfect victim.

Yeah. We need a woman that doesn't wait to report. We need a woman that dresses appropriately. We need a woman who's crying, who's in distress. Right. We need a woman who's never had alcohol, who's never done drugs. We need a woman who's soft spoken. [01:12:00] Uh, she needs to be, you know, ki you that whole mold of the perfect victim.

If they're angry in any way, if they delayed their response in any way, and they're, they're gonna be dis, you know, they're, they're gonna be disbelieved. They're not gonna, you know, be believed. The burden of the perfect female victim is another form of control. Yeah. Yeah, I, yeah, I mean, there's so much, I mean, that's why I feel so mad about being left out of the courtroom.

I know. I don't, I'm not entitled to it. No, I know. But you know, and yeah, I just, I'm not a religious person, but I. Sending the, the energy to those women who are brave enough to sit and look at their abuser. Any woman who sits in a courtroom and has to point out their abuser in court, which is the wildest thing, if you really think about it, not only do you have to accuse someone, accuse [01:13:00] your abuser of doing something, you have to sit in court and look at them, have them look at you while you're saying all these, like that is a crazy.

Mm-hmm. That is just the craziest idea that it's not via a video, anything like that? No. You have to show up. Yeah. You have to have them look at you. Yeah. You haven't gone through enough. Yeah. It's. If you're not crying, you're cold. Yeah. But if you're crying too much, you're acting. Yeah. Yeah. There's, it's a whole thing.

And, um, I don't know, maybe I'll go stand in line. I think they like 13 people in day. They do. They do. I'm trying to think of who, uh, um, mango. Rotten Mango, uh, I'm, her name is escaping me, but she is a reporter and she's got a very popular Wait. Stephanie? Yes. Stephanie Wu, right? Yes. Oh, I love her. Yes. She's awesome.

I saw her TikTok, she's been in, yeah. So she is someone who has, which is really cool. Um, but yeah. Is there anything we should know? Anything else you can think of real quick before we go that we should know about the trial before we get to it? You know, I, [01:14:00] I don't know. I think that the defense's plan. Of going after Cassie is obviously not unexpected from a legal per perspective.

Sure. But is just so disheartening and mm-hmm. Oh, you know, on the prosecution team I did wanna mention, which is kind of cool, there's eight US attorneys and seven of them are women. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Um, I thought that was, that was pretty cool. We're getting something here. Yeah. And I feel like they might add another layer of perspective, empathy, emotion.

I'd be very interested to look into their, you know, their case history. I do know that, uh, Maureen Comey is one of them. Former FBI agent James Comey's daughter. Comey's wife. Oh, his daughter. Daughter. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I was like, hold on. I know that name. Yeah. I mean, you know, tips of the iceberg here. Going back with all the corruption.

So, uh, thank you for offering me my 10 part [01:15:00] series on your podcast. Absolutely. Please tell everyone where they can find you. 'cause if you're not listening already, like what are you doing with you if you're listening to us. Oh, you're so sweet. You're really nice. You listen to us and then go over there.

Yeah. You guys have listen them. Awesome. You guys have a, a little bit of a calmer vibe than me and Joey, but we're very nice people. Very nice. You guys are great. And I always see like your social media, like your listeners. Love you guys and I think that says so much about you. Thank you. I really appreciate that.

We, we do have a great community so you can find, I think, not pod on social media. You can find us wherever you get your podcast. Spotify, Amazon, apple. We also have a very active Patreon. We have a TikTok Instagram. You can find me personally at Ellen Marsh on Instagram and TikTok. I spell my name with a Y.

It's super annoying. I don't know why my mom did that to me. Clearly she did not want me to have a life on the stage. I also have a Love Is Blind Recap podcast. What? [01:16:00] Yeah. It's the only reality show I can get Mandy to watch. Seriously. Oh my gosh. For like the last two or three years. Every time there's a new season, we do bonus episodes where we just discuss Love is Blind.

It's so, it's the most random thing that we do on our podcast because it doesn't go with anything. It's just, oh my God. Love is, you guys have to come up. I'm blown away. Please. Well, okay. I know you guys don't curse, but it's called Shut the F up. Nicholas Cliche, shut the F up. Nicholas cliche, but we use the real word.

Can Melissa just say shut the F up? Lash cliche. She might go for that and uh, I say it to my TV all the time. No, that's how we came up with it. So it's me and Daisy Egan, who's another Broadway lady. Mm-hmm. She won a Tony when she was like two years old. It's very funny. And we were at my house one day watching it and I was just sitting there, went.

Oh, shut the F up cliche. And I go, Hey, if we ever have a podcast, we should call it that. Uh, but that's through, uh, grab bag collab, and we have our back seasons on the general [01:17:00] feed, and then the most current seasons are on a Patreon, but you can find us, uh, at grab bag, collab, and it's really, really fun. You guys have to come on for a co-pro episode, please.

So fun. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Oh my gosh, that's really, really fun. Yeah, so you can find me on socials. I love engaging with people. Thank you for allowing me to come on and squawk at your audience. No, thank you so much. We learned so much and I feel much more prepared going into next week. Excited. Now we are like quasi, we, we know an expert.

How about that? That's about as far as we got. We know an expert. You, you just know. Me, we we're gonna, we're gonna have to make a text chain about it. We're gonna have to text Absolutely. About the child. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Don't add Kimberly. Whatever you do. She still has the green button and I can't, yeah.

Kimberly Arnold, we love you. Yeah, but get over it. Thank you so much for having me. You guys are such a delight, and thank you. Well, I hope I see you soon. Soon. Absolutely. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. All right guys. Thank you guys for listening this [01:18:00] week. We enjoyed having Ellen on, and we'll be back next week, same time, same place.

New story. Have a great week. Bye.